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Author Topic: Other forum news  (Read 1757 times)

John Fruits

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Other forum news
« on: March 29, 2021, 06:14:24 pm »

https://www.reddit.com/r/audioengineering/comments/mftc0g/gearslutz_is_changing_its_name_to_gearspace/
It seems that THAT forum is changing its name.
I mean, isn't that the forum you think of when you want to tell some newbie "Yo, DUDE, maybe you should try gearslutz. You know, those people who talk about all the gear they just bought and want everyone to tell them how cool they now are, oh and also ask, "Does anyone know how to set this up?"
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Other forum news
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2021, 11:33:13 pm »

I was always offended by the use of a "z".  Oh, and much of the content, too.  Lots to wade through for the occasional gem.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Other forum news
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2021, 11:48:37 pm »

https://www.reddit.com/r/audioengineering/comments/mftc0g/gearslutz_is_changing_its_name_to_gearspace/
It seems that THAT forum is changing its name.
I didn't know that "THAT Corp" had a forum?
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I mean, isn't that the forum you think of when you want to tell some newbie "Yo, DUDE, maybe you should try gearslutz. You know, those people who talk about all the gear they just bought and want everyone to tell them how cool they now are, oh and also ask, "Does anyone know how to set this up?"
I have participated on Gearslutz for decades kind of like here, helping lost wanderers in the wilderness. 

We were all born ignorant, some die that way.

JR

PS; Not sure I would encourage even more snowflakes (offended by words) but they seem to be everywhere these days.
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Steve-White

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Re: Other forum news
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2021, 01:03:55 am »

"We were all born ignorant, some die that way."

I like it
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Chris Hindle

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Re: Other forum news
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2021, 08:00:11 am »

"We were all born ignorant, some die that way."

I like it
Truth hurts, don't it......  ::)
Chris.
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Russell Ault

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Re: Other forum news
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2021, 01:29:29 pm »

{...} PS; Not sure I would encourage even more snowflakes (offended by words) but they seem to be everywhere these days.

I don't think I can just let this sit here; most of the people I know who are actually offended by word choice are the people who use the term "snowflake" un-ironically.

The point of communication is to transfer information from one person to another. The challenge, of course, is that no two people will ever have exactly the same understanding of any particular form of communication, which leads to miscommunication. There are a couple of solutions to this challenge, but the one I've come to prefer is placing the onus for clear communication (and thus the responsibility for clearing up any misunderstandings) on the party doing the communicating.

While this "communicator's onus" is fairly common in formalized contexts (think letters from lawyers, or the strict procedures used in aviation and maritime radio), its opposite is often used in day-to-day conversation, especially when there is a power disparity (either actual or perceived) between the parties. This gives us the classic phrase "what don't you understand about..." which, even on its face, is a pretty dumb question (the only correct response being something along the lines of "how the hell am I supposed to know?").

Conversely, when applied to day-to-day interactions, the communicator's onus quickly shows itself to be the kindest possible option, and also the most practical: if someone is having trouble understanding you (for whatever reason), blaming the listener will never help to improve the communication (regardless of how personally satisfying it may feel), while taking personal responsibility for communicating clearly often allows a message to get through even in the face of significant barriers.

Organization names are, of course, a form of communication, subject to same challenges of miscommunication as any other. Gearspace's historical name used a word with a multitude of different meanings, all of them pejorative to some extent or other. While I have no doubt that the meaning GS was intending to convey was quite benign and self-effacing, I also have no doubt that there are many people who received that communication and understood it, perhaps in addition to its intended meaning (but also perhaps not), to be an explicit perpetuation of the sexist norms that seem particularly endemic in audio.

In changing their name, Gearspace has done nothing more radical than taking it upon themselves to try and clear up some long-standing miscommunication about the nature of the community they're trying to build. On a personal level, I would encourage anyone who is upset by this improved communication to pause for a moment and really reflect on why they feel that the additional clarity is somehow a problem.

-Russ
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Other forum news
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2021, 01:43:52 pm »

I don't think I can just let this sit here; most of the people I know who are actually offended by word choice are the people who use the term "snowflake" un-ironically.
Thus proving my point that they are everywhere.

Not offended that I called people ignorant, but triggered by "snowflake".
Quote
The point of communication is to transfer information from one person to another. The challenge, of course, is that no two people will ever have exactly the same understanding of any particular form of communication, which leads to miscommunication. There are a couple of solutions to this challenge, but the one I've come to prefer is placing the onus for clear communication (and thus the responsibility for clearing up any misunderstandings) on the party doing the communicating.

While this "communicator's onus" is fairly common in formalized contexts (think letters from lawyers, or the strict procedures used in aviation and maritime radio), its opposite is often used in day-to-day conversation, especially when there is a power disparity (either actual or perceived) between the parties. This gives us the classic phrase "what don't you understand about..." which, even on its face, is a pretty dumb question (the only correct response being something along the lines of "how the hell am I supposed to know?").

Conversely, when applied to day-to-day interactions, the communicator's onus quickly shows itself to be the kindest possible option, and also the most practical: if someone is having trouble understanding you (for whatever reason), blaming the listener will never help to improve the communication (regardless of how personally satisfying it may feel), while taking personal responsibility for communicating clearly often allows a message to get through even in the face of significant barriers.

Organization names are, of course, a form of communication, subject to same challenges of miscommunication as any other. Gearspace's historical name used a word with a multitude of different meanings, all of them pejorative to some extent or other. While I have no doubt that the meaning GS was intending to convey was quite benign and self-effacing, I also have no doubt that there are many people who received that communication and understood it, perhaps in addition to its intended meaning (but also perhaps not), to be an explicit perpetuation of the sexist norms that seem particularly endemic in audio.

In changing their name, Gearspace has done nothing more radical than taking it upon themselves to try and clear up some long-standing miscommunication about the nature of the community they're trying to build. On a personal level, I would encourage anyone who is upset by this improved communication to pause for a moment and really reflect on why they feel that the additional clarity is somehow a problem.

-Russ
This is all about the Benjamins and they want to keep as many eyeballs as they can to sell their advertising (not unlike here). They are probably worried about being boycotted by the new crop of social justice cancel culture warriors.

I am waiting for the cancel culture to consume itself, as they usually do but this time seems more persistent than in the past (thank you social media... not).

My apologies to the forum mods if this sounds political, these days everything is.

JR

PS: Where is Dave's anvil of truth when we need it?
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Russell Ault

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Re: Other forum news
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2021, 02:18:45 pm »

{...} Not offended that I called people ignorant, but triggered by "snowflake". {...}

Why should I be offended that you called people ignorant? There's plenty of ignorance to go around.

As for "snowflake", my experience has been that the term is used almost exclusively to dismiss the very real and valid concerns of people who have been marginalized (for one reason or another). In the sense that it serves to remind me that I should try and ameliorate this great unkindness, I guess you could say I've been "triggered" (although I doubt that's quite what you meant).

{...} This is all about the Benjamins and they want to keep as many eyeballs as they can to sell their advertising (not unlike here). They are probably worried about being boycotted by the new crop of social justice cancel culture warriors. {...}

Heaven forfend that an organization should try to appeal to a wider audience. Heaven forfend that the omniscient market should encourage such a thing. Heaven forfend that people who have been harmed by a term should discourage its use.

{...} I am waiting for the cancel culture to consume itself, as they usually do but this time seems more persistent than in the past (thank you social media... not). {...}

I've always thought that "cancel culture" is such an interesting term: at its heart it implies that everything is (or, at least, was) perfect, and thus any deviation from the existing norms must be inherently negative. I guess about all I can say is that I'm glad your life is so completely beyond improvement, but I'd encourage you to consider that this may not be true for everyone else.

-Russ

ETA: In another Basement thread recently, Tim McCulloch asked "how can we - as an industry - find and mentor new crew that isn't just a bunch of old, grumpy, most white men?" I would suggest that a good first step would be building up a willingness to acknowledge the legitimacy of other people's concerns, even if those concerns don't seem like such a big deal to us.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 03:28:32 pm by Russell Ault »
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Other forum news
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2021, 03:32:49 pm »

Why should I be offended that you called people ignorant? There's plenty of ignorance to go around.
we are all ignorant... the first step is realizing that.
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As for "snowflake", my experience has been that the term is used almost exclusively to dismiss the very real and valid concerns of people who have been marginalized (for one reason or another). In the sense that it serves to remind me that I should try and ameliorate this great unkindness, I guess you could say I've been "triggered" (although I doubt that's quite what you meant).
I do not argue with people on the internet about what they say they hear, or what they say "I think".
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Heaven forfend that an organization should try to appeal to a wider audience. Heaven forfend that the omniscient market should encourage such a thing. Heaven forfend that people who have been harmed by a term should discourage its use.
it's about survival, in case you haven't noticed its a competitive world for people's attention. If you stand still, you will lose share.
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I've always thought that "cancel culture" is such an interesting term: at its heart it implies that everything is (or, at least, was) perfect, and thus any deviation from the existing norms must be inherently negative. I guess about all I can say is that I'm glad your life is so completely beyond improvement, but I'd encourage you to consider that this may not be true for everyone else.

-Russ
Again having difficulty with reading other people's minds?

Cancel culture seems more about ganging up on public figures by like minded social media _______(insert your own pejorative in the blank space). There are too many examples in recent history, not to mention attempts to cancel past presidents and even our founders for behavior that was normal hundreds of years ago. Therein lies a large part of the problem, modern culture is changing almost too fast to keep up with. I am just lucky we didn't have social media when I was young and stupid(er). I wouldn't tweet on a bet.

JR     

PS; I am a moderator on another forum, I irritate plenty over there too...but we are strictly rules based... Too many people try to make up their own rules.
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Russell Ault

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Re: Other forum news
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2021, 04:52:33 pm »

we are all ignorant... the first step is realizing that. {...}

Well, at least we can agree on something.

{...} I do not argue with people on the internet about what they say they hear, or what they say "I think". {...}

A good policy. Personally, though, if someone heard me say "X", when I was trying to express "Y", I'll search out a different way to say "Y" (ideally one that precludes communicating "X"). Like I said above, I believe that the responsibility for clear communication lies with the one doing the communicating. :)

{...} If you stand still, you will lose share. {...}

A brilliant example of the free market serving society as a whole!

{...} Cancel culture seems more about ganging up on public figures by like minded social media _______(insert your own pejorative in the blank space). There are too many examples in recent history, not to mention attempts to cancel past presidents and even our founders for behavior that was normal hundreds of years ago. Therein lies a large part of the problem, modern culture is changing almost too fast to keep up with. I am just lucky we didn't have social media when I was young and stupid(er). I wouldn't tweet on a bet.  {...}

We live in a society that has always been arbitrarily dominated by specific groups of people, typically to the detriment of others. The scale of that dominance has been slowly lessening for the past several centuries, a process that has been accelerating basically since the beginning of the industrial revolution. Of course, that acceleration is rarely smooth or easy, and in the US in particular it has often resulted in periodic, horrific bloodshed, dating right back to the country's founding. So far, the current round of cultural changes have been relatively bloodless, a fact we should all be thankful for.

Most of the people who have made significant contributions to human advancement also have done things that, viewed through the lens of the present, are clearly unacceptable. Of course, being "viewed through the lens of the present" is a risk borne by anyone who wishes to stand in the history books, and, as anyone who has chronic lead poisoning (or asbestosis, etc.) can tell you, "accepted practice at the time" and "a good idea" (let alone "morally correct") is a dangerous false-equivalency.

The idea of problematic people doing amazing things (or vice-versa) is a largely-intractable cause of cognitive dissonance, and it's something that we as a society have spent a good deal of time and effort trying to ignore as best as we can. To the extent that we are starting to try and actually work through this now is inevitably a good thing, particularly for those who were on the receiving end of history's problematic parts, but it's going to be messy and full of nuance, neither of which are things humans are particularly good at dealing with.

While I can't quite agree that modern culture is changing too fast, per se (many of the people who are on the receiving end of being dominated would likely argue it isn't changing fast enough), you're absolutely right that it can be hard to keep up. Heck, I know I've pushed back against it myself from time to time.

That said, "keeping up" is something I've been working hard on, because what I've found is that the alternative is to unintentionally be a real jerk to a lot of the people that I love. Easily the thing that has helped me the most is learning to be as empathetic as I possibly can. I don't know why the human default is for me to assume that I have both amazing forethought and the best of intentions while everyone else is a selfish, unthinking idiot, but the harder I've pushed back against those assumptions the more sense the current cultural changes start to make (and, frankly, the happier I've been, both with myself and with those around me).

As for social media, I'm not a particularly avid participant myself. Truth be told, the PSW Forums basical are my "social media". :D

{...} PS; I am a moderator on another forum, I irritate plenty over there too...but we are strictly rules based... Too many people try to make up their own rules.

Rules are incredibly, vitally important. Just as important, though, is that everybody agree on them (at least in a democracy, anyway). Rules will always fail without the support of consensus, which means that changing the rules to maintain consensus is also incredibly, vitally important.

While there will always been outliers, my sense is that a large part of the reason why it seems like so many people are just making up their own rules these days is because the existing rules in many places no longer have the support of consensus, and therefore the existing rules are starting to fail. History suggests that when rules fail for lack of consensus bad things happen, which doesn't make consensus-building any easier (I wish!), but it certainly increases my personal imperative to try and build consensus anyway (despite its difficulty).

-Russ
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Re: Other forum news
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2021, 04:52:33 pm »


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