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Author Topic: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?  (Read 1221 times)

Ryan C. Davis

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Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« on: February 21, 2021, 03:14:02 pm »

Hey guys,

Been running 6 Danley TH-115's for a few years now (3 per side). They play loud but I'm not super happy with the way they sound. I've tried to put my finger on it but really the more I mess with delays and EQ's the more frustrated I get. I have a smaller rig that I use JBL SRX718's with and I like them a lot, they're lightweight and the straightforward design I think lends itself to being more accurate. I was thinking about selling my TH's and going to 4x front firing 18's per side (two double 18 cabs per side) instead. I've been searching around to see who has what and it seems like I'm either finding flyable boxes that are $5-10k each or what I would consider more prosumer offerings like the QSC181's. Not saying anything bad about either of those options but I'm looking for something to be ground stacked. I keep dreaming of a pair of BC218's but they're insanely expensive, and they weigh like 700 lbs. Anyone have a recommendation for a double 18" front firing sub they have used and love? There is only so much I can glean from a spec sheet. I'd be open to other suggestions too I just think the front firing is going to have the best sonic characteristics, maybe I'm wrong. I heard some Renkus Heinz boxes at NAMM two years ago that I liked but honestly I'm kind of lost here. I assumed I would do passive boxes but if active is where its at I'm open to that too. Sorry for the rambling post.
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Ryan Davis

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2021, 03:56:24 pm »

Since you have Danley, why not stay on Danley. Don’t know if you can demo the TH118xl. I read it plays lower and louder. I hope users can chime in. I have one th118 and very happy and that’s not being properly powered/ processed.

For 218, JBL SRX828sp active wins as top value. JTR speaker offers an excellent double 18 in passive or active versions.
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Nils Erickson

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2021, 04:42:07 pm »

How about J subs?  It's also a cardioid sub right out of the box, with 3x18". And there are some pretty good used deals to be had out there now.
I have some TH-115s and TH-118s that I really like, but it is a pretty different sound than front loaded.  Maybe you just prefer that sound of front loaded subs...
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2021, 05:21:09 pm »

Check out BASSBOSS.  David is building some fantastic subs.



Hey guys,

Been running 6 Danley TH-115's for a few years now (3 per side). They play loud but I'm not super happy with the way they sound. I've tried to put my finger on it but really the more I mess with delays and EQ's the more frustrated I get. I have a smaller rig that I use JBL SRX718's with and I like them a lot, they're lightweight and the straightforward design I think lends itself to being more accurate. I was thinking about selling my TH's and going to 4x front firing 18's per side (two double 18 cabs per side) instead. I've been searching around to see who has what and it seems like I'm either finding flyable boxes that are $5-10k each or what I would consider more prosumer offerings like the QSC181's. Not saying anything bad about either of those options but I'm looking for something to be ground stacked. I keep dreaming of a pair of BC218's but they're insanely expensive, and they weigh like 700 lbs. Anyone have a recommendation for a double 18" front firing sub they have used and love? There is only so much I can glean from a spec sheet. I'd be open to other suggestions too I just think the front firing is going to have the best sonic characteristics, maybe I'm wrong. I heard some Renkus Heinz boxes at NAMM two years ago that I liked but honestly I'm kind of lost here. I assumed I would do passive boxes but if active is where its at I'm open to that too. Sorry for the rambling post.
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2021, 05:37:19 pm »

Hey guys,

Been running 6 Danley TH-115's for a few years now (3 per side). They play loud but I'm not super happy with the way they sound. I've tried to put my finger on it but really the more I mess with delays and EQ's the more frustrated I get. I have a smaller rig that I use JBL SRX718's with and I like them a lot, they're lightweight and the straightforward design I think lends itself to being more accurate. I was thinking about selling my TH's and going to 4x front firing 18's per side (two double 18 cabs per side) instead. I've been searching around to see who has what and it seems like I'm either finding flyable boxes that are $5-10k each or what I would consider more prosumer offerings like the QSC181's. Not saying anything bad about either of those options but I'm looking for something to be ground stacked. I keep dreaming of a pair of BC218's but they're insanely expensive, and they weigh like 700 lbs. Anyone have a recommendation for a double 18" front firing sub they have used and love? There is only so much I can glean from a spec sheet. I'd be open to other suggestions too I just think the front firing is going to have the best sonic characteristics, maybe I'm wrong. I heard some Renkus Heinz boxes at NAMM two years ago that I liked but honestly I'm kind of lost here. I assumed I would do passive boxes but if active is where its at I'm open to that too. Sorry for the rambling post.

JTR may have some front loaded subs to interest you. Both 2-18 and 2-15's seem to get good reviews.

https://www.jtrspeakers.com/pro-audio

Douglas R. Allen
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Helge A Bentsen

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2021, 05:54:28 pm »

If new, I would look into Fulcrum TS221 or EAW SB2001.
If used, EAW SB1000.
If cheap, whatever decent in my local used market. Bought 12 RCF 2x18" for around $3000 a while back.

If money no issue, EAW Otto. By far the best sub I've ever been fortunate enough to use.
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Mark Wilkinson

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2021, 06:03:22 pm »


+1 to both the BassBoss and JTR offerings.

May i ask what it is about the TH115's sound that seems off?
(i ask because the TH-118's sound a little 'huh?' to me too...compared to a front loaded horn or well done bass reflex...)

If DIY is an option, i can vouch for a couple of BMS 18n862's in a vented cabinet.
About $1400 a box to build. Easy build, can send plans if interested.
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Martin Morris

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2021, 09:13:00 pm »

Hey guys,

Been running 6 Danley TH-115's for a few years now (3 per side). They play loud but I'm not super happy with the way they sound. I've tried to put my finger on it but really the more I mess with delays and EQ's the more frustrated I get. I have a smaller rig that I use JBL SRX718's with and I like them a lot, they're lightweight and the straightforward design I think lends itself to being more accurate. I was thinking about selling my TH's and going to 4x front firing 18's per side (two double 18 cabs per side) instead. I've been searching around to see who has what and it seems like I'm either finding flyable boxes that are $5-10k each or what I would consider more prosumer offerings like the QSC181's. Not saying anything bad about either of those options but I'm looking for something to be ground stacked. I keep dreaming of a pair of BC218's but they're insanely expensive, and they weigh like 700 lbs. Anyone have a recommendation for a double 18" front firing sub they have used and love? There is only so much I can glean from a spec sheet. I'd be open to other suggestions too I just think the front firing is going to have the best sonic characteristics, maybe I'm wrong. I heard some Renkus Heinz boxes at NAMM two years ago that I liked but honestly I'm kind of lost here. I assumed I would do passive boxes but if active is where its at I'm open to that too. Sorry for the rambling post.

Ryan,

I see from another post you are using a TEF analyzer:
"Hey Art, are you talking about the gradations on the RTA? I'm using a TEF 20 and I have options for 5, 3, and 1dB gradations."

Have you looked at the TH115's with the TEF?

What's the time domain looking like and the interaction with your mains? - if you're not using Danley tops with Danely presets I would set some time aside and look into the time domain of the whole system. How the phase traces overlap etc ... Allpass filters ... wink wink ...

What DSP are you using?

cheers
Martin
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Martin Morris

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2021, 09:56:02 pm »

Hey guys,

Been running 6 Danley TH-115's for a few years now (3 per side). They play loud but I'm not super happy with the way they sound. I've tried to put my finger on it but really the more I mess with delays and EQ's the more frustrated I get. I have a smaller rig that I use JBL SRX718's with and I like them a lot, they're lightweight and the straightforward design I think lends itself to being more accurate. I was thinking about selling my TH's and going to 4x front firing 18's per side (two double 18 cabs per side) instead. I've been searching around to see who has what and it seems like I'm either finding flyable boxes that are $5-10k each or what I would consider more prosumer offerings like the QSC181's. Not saying anything bad about either of those options but I'm looking for something to be ground stacked. I keep dreaming of a pair of BC218's but they're insanely expensive, and they weigh like 700 lbs. Anyone have a recommendation for a double 18" front firing sub they have used and love? There is only so much I can glean from a spec sheet. I'd be open to other suggestions too I just think the front firing is going to have the best sonic characteristics, maybe I'm wrong. I heard some Renkus Heinz boxes at NAMM two years ago that I liked but honestly I'm kind of lost here. I assumed I would do passive boxes but if active is where its at I'm open to that too. Sorry for the rambling post.

Ryan,

see attached TEF measurement from Danley - that's a very usable passband to work with. Does a single TH115 look close to this? which was also measured with a TEF - if not investigate further. Are the drivers 18sound or B&C? - I think they may have swapped driver manufacturers over the years ...

How's the Mag & Phase compare? and what is it about a double 18 reflex cab that you like? - once you find one you like, measure it and apply a bit of that voicing to your TH's. And yeah I get that some of the uniqueness of a double 18 reflex cab won't be able to be reproduced.

Also, see Duane's thread on transient response, and Art nailed it ...
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,175091.0.html

No need for getting the checkbook out  ... just yet anyway.

cheers
Martin
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 10:32:51 pm by Martin Morris »
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Ryan C. Davis

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2021, 11:14:37 pm »

Check out BASSBOSS.  David is building some fantastic subs.

Thanks for the recommendation, Doug!
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Ryan Davis

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2021, 09:05:06 am »

Hey guys,

Been running 6 Danley TH-115's for a few years now (3 per side). They play loud but I'm not super happy with the way they sound. I've tried to put my finger on it but really the more I mess with delays and EQ's the more frustrated I get.
I think the idea of "messing with delay and eq" is the root of your troubles.

Are you just "messing with", or actually measuring (specifically phase) the alignment of the tops and subs?

I am guessing that the REAL cause of your frustration is that the tops and subs are not properly aligned, which causes a hole in the response (which could greatly affect the "punch").

This can happen with any sub/top combination.  It is a combination of the freq of the filters, the type of filters, the slope of the filters, the internal delays inside the individual cabinets etc.

Just "hoping" that a different cabinet will solve your problems, is like hoping you will get all green lights on a trip.  To many variables to guess at.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2021, 09:25:23 am »

Ryan,

see attached TEF measurement from Danley - that's a very usable passband to work with. Does a single TH115 look close to this? which was also measured with a TEF - if not investigate further. Are the drivers 18sound or B&C? - I think they may have swapped driver manufacturers over the years ...


The only change to drivers in the TH115 was the impedance.  The B&C model has stayed the same.  Originally the TH115 was 8 ohm, then it was changed to 4 ohms (to make it easier to drive with the amplifiers of the day).

The standard impedance (if not specified) is 4 ohms, but you can get 8 ohm woofers if you prefer.  Some people prefer the 8 ohm versions, because they are harder to drive, which makes they less likely to be overpowered by people who only know that up is louder.

The TH118 started out with 18 sound drivers, but was quickly changed to B&C. 
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Ryan C. Davis

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2021, 02:26:03 pm »

I think the idea of "messing with delay and eq" is the root of your troubles.

Are you just "messing with", or actually measuring (specifically phase) the alignment of the tops and subs?

I am guessing that the REAL cause of your frustration is that the tops and subs are not properly aligned, which causes a hole in the response (which could greatly affect the "punch").

This can happen with any sub/top combination.  It is a combination of the freq of the filters, the type of filters, the slope of the filters, the internal delays inside the individual cabinets etc.

Just "hoping" that a different cabinet will solve your problems, is like hoping you will get all green lights on a trip.  To many variables to guess at.


OK champ, give me your best shot since you are representing the company. I'm using All Danley gear, SH50's over TH115's and a DNA20k4. I have a TEF 25 in my hot little hands with all of the modules you could want or need. You call me anytime and I'll put any data you wish into that little blue box. Then we'll set the world on fire with amazing sound. Deal? Here's my phone number: 8013093055.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2021, 04:41:14 pm by Ryan C. Davis »
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Ryan Davis

David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2021, 02:28:11 pm »


OK champ, give me your best shot since you are representing the company. I'm using All Danley gear, SH50's over TH115's and a DNA20k4. I have a TEF 20 in my hot little hands with all of the modules you could want or need. You call me anytime and I'll put any data you wish into that little blue box. Then we'll set the world on fire with amazing sound. Deal? Here's my phone number: 8013093055.

But do you have an XP machine to run that TEF 20 :)
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Ryan C. Davis

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2021, 04:40:45 pm »

But do you have an XP machine to run that TEF 20 :)

hahaha, I've got both a 20 and a 25 and I get them mixed up. Yeah, haven't busted out the 20 in a while...or maybe 15 years.
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Ryan Davis

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2021, 04:46:40 pm »


OK champ, give me your best shot since you are representing the company. I'm using All Danley gear, SH50's over TH115's and a DNA20k4. I have a TEF 20 in my hot little hands with all of the modules you could want or need. You call me anytime and I'll put any data you wish into that little blue box. Then we'll set the world on fire with amazing sound. Deal? Here's my phone number: 8013093055.
I assume you have already determined what sort of "system" you are running and why?

And by that, I mean, are you running subs off an aux?  And are you overlapping the subs and tops or crossing over between them?

Or just a full range signal into the tops and bottom?

Personally I prefer to run subs off an aux (assuming a live band and not DJ) with the tops going full range (within their practical limits) and typically subs up to around 80Hz.  Sometimes lower, depending on a particular setup.

I start by running just the subs, letting the delay finder find the sub and look for a relatively flat phase response through the sub region.  Adjust the delay finder as needed to achieve that "flatish" response.  This is done with the sub HP and LP filters engaged.  Save that trace

Turn the sub off, and the top on.  Find the delay and look at the phase.  Adjust the phase until you get it to pretty much lay on top of the sub phase trace (paying attention to what is happening to the phase above the sub LP filter and trying to get close to that as well.  Don't worry about what is happening up higher.  Save the trace when you get it.

Now turn the sub back on, along with the top.  Remeasure the system.  You should see an increase in the amplitude around xover freq.  I am talking acoustical xover, not electrical.

From there you can make adjustments to either the HP of the top and the LP of the sub, or apply some eq cuts if you want it to be flat.

Or you can leave it with the hump if that is the sound you are going for.  Either way, you should NOT see a dip in the response of the whole system vs either sub or fullrange response.  If you see a dip (above or below xover), then the delay time is wrong.

The nice thing about aligning down low is there is a bit more fudge room in terms of delay time.  Getting close is oftenb good enough.  Up high, things get a lot more picky.

OH, and if you change either xover freq, the delay time will also probably change as well.  So it is a bit of back and forth.
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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2021, 04:49:10 pm »

hahaha, I've got both a 20 and a 25 and I get them mixed up. Yeah, haven't busted out the 20 in a while...or maybe 15 years.
The 20 is the hardware based system, the 25 is software based.

I still have a 20, but have not used it with newer computers, so it has been the 25 for me since 2 computer upgrades ago.
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Martin Morris

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2021, 07:54:47 pm »

I assume you have already determined what sort of "system" you are running and why?

And by that, I mean, are you running subs off an aux?  And are you overlapping the subs and tops or crossing over between them?

Or just a full range signal into the tops and bottom?

Personally I prefer to run subs off an aux (assuming a live band and not DJ) with the tops going full range (within their practical limits) and typically subs up to around 80Hz.  Sometimes lower, depending on a particular setup.

I start by running just the subs, letting the delay finder find the sub and look for a relatively flat phase response through the sub region.  Adjust the delay finder as needed to achieve that "flatish" response.  This is done with the sub HP and LP filters engaged.  Save that trace

Turn the sub off, and the top on.  Find the delay and look at the phase.  Adjust the phase until you get it to pretty much lay on top of the sub phase trace (paying attention to what is happening to the phase above the sub LP filter and trying to get close to that as well.  Don't worry about what is happening up higher.  Save the trace when you get it.

Now turn the sub back on, along with the top.  Remeasure the system.  You should see an increase in the amplitude around xover freq.  I am talking acoustical xover, not electrical.

From there you can make adjustments to either the HP of the top and the LP of the sub, or apply some eq cuts if you want it to be flat.

Or you can leave it with the hump if that is the sound you are going for.  Either way, you should NOT see a dip in the response of the whole system vs either sub or fullrange response.  If you see a dip (above or below xover), then the delay time is wrong.

The nice thing about aligning down low is there is a bit more fudge room in terms of delay time.  Getting close is oftenb good enough.  Up high, things get a lot more picky.

OH, and if you change either xover freq, the delay time will also probably change as well.  So it is a bit of back and forth.


I haven't played with Smaart for a while but with Systune it's realtime - In Smaart, you have to push the delay finder? as I said I don't know. I usually start by adding 20ms of delay on all outputs (wiggle room to nudge things in time then subtract later)

With Systune after taking a snapshot of the top box trace you need to turn off the real-time delay - then mute the tops and look at the subs with reference to phase. Move the sub in time to match.

Ryan:
I've been through this exact process with SM80's and tapped horns ... As with most 2 - ways (passive top  & sub) getting the phase spot on in the 80> <200 Hz range allows for a much higher x over on the sub and yes run the SH50 full range as this will probably help to match the phase through that region. If you're planning on a wide overlapping region, start by measuring the TH115's and play with x slopes and freq so that above 100Hz the phase is as flat as possible. You can throw away a lot of output energy (punch) by just slapping an LR24 x over at 80Hz and walking away.

Some or a lot of out-of-band filters could be required to clean up the TH115's. I'm not sure how well they play out of band >100? - but start with phase 1st -  ALWAYS !!

A shelving boost on the TH115's will restore the balance <80 Hz.

Ryan - Ivan has mentioned this before and in the 150Hz range the SH50 isn't getting a lot of power delivered there (see impedance graph - its high impedance) so a bit of boost there could help the overlap range.

If you find yourself adding more than the recommended shelving boost or your TH115's aren't liking it to achieve your desired balance, raise the HP filter a bit on the TH115's. Rock n Roll was a hit back in the '70s and it didn't care too much about <50 Hz ... EDM, well that's another discussion.

Ivan - I'd be very interested to see the before and after results if you care to share them ...

cheers
Martin

EDIT: raise the HP filter, not LP filter a bit on the TH115's

« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 08:55:14 pm by Martin Morris »
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Ryan C. Davis

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Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2021, 05:14:56 pm »

Ivan and Martin, thanks you both for taking the time. I'll give it another shot :-)
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Ryan Davis

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Replace my Danley TH115's with...?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2021, 05:14:56 pm »


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