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[Jason Raboin]

This is a tough one.  My wife used to say "and I want ice cream in the mail" when customers would ask for things that were not feasible.  Then I ordered Jeni's for her and now she can't say that anymore, but I digress.

I guess the first question I would ask is how tall can the stack be?  No matter what there will be speakers that are visible to the client, so knowing very specifically what those guidelines are, then making them aware of the limitations in performance that their limitations in placement create would narrow your scope.  If you stack in a large space and put mix position at the back, it's going to be really really loud down front.

We stack 9 dV over 3 dV-subs for one long term rental client.  I was surprised to see this deemed safe, but it is.  Bear in mind it's something like 13' tall and takes a while to stack and unstack.  It's not flown, but not really portable either.  Were there points it would actually take far less time to rig and unrig.  A flown system can be flown pretty low.  It can be flown up to max height to be out of sightlines when not wanted.  A flown system, even flown low, is going to have less visual impact and better results than a stacked system.  A flown system is not necessarily going to take longer to move to storage than a stacked one.  If you have the points to fly the subs behind the arrays it will give you even less to look at.

Have you explored custom painted boxes?  There was a post recently that showed some beautifully painted Nexo boxes that blended in well.

So, if you really just need to stack some speakers on the stage, I would look to something with serious DSP behind it and loud, since you can only get 6-8 per side stacked.  Martin WPC is the only thing I can think of that would be in your budget.  There's EAW Adaptive or L-Acoustics K3i, but they are more than your stated per box budget.

[scottstephens]

Dave,

    Where are you located?  You need to contact several Reps and have them give some demos of their gear.  You have been given some great advice and some great gear has been listed, but only you and the client can determine what suits your needs. As been said here many times, Wrong gear at the right price is still the Wrong gear.

My 2 cents. Probably the only thing that I will be right about all day.  Good Mixing.

Scott

[Helge A Bentsen]

EAW Adaptive would do that perfectly, it's more per box than your box budget, but you'll need a lot fewer boxes than a traditional array so the total amount of $$$ would be comparable at worst or usually a lot less in total.

I've done shows with 4 boxes Adaptive a side that we usually did with 8-12 boxes in the past.

[Luke Geis]

If Ground stacked PA is the only viable option that will fit in the client's criterion, then absolutely NO conventional Line Array system would be acceptable. It would need to be a point source all the way. That being said Heldge mentions the EAW system ( not a conventional LA system ) which is something to consider? Another nonconventional LA system would be the Martin MLA. Here is the problem with both of those options... The box cost alone without processing and amplification is probably above your per box budget. At around $5-6K per amplifier and another $5k in peripheral controllers ( lake, P1 AVB, GreyBox stuff et all )! So not cheap by any standard.

Danley Sound Labs is the Premier point source option and $ for $ will give you the most you can get. If Danley isn't your style, L'Acoustics ARCS would make any engineer smile. There are of course several options from RCF, EAW, and JBL that are slightly more affordable, often self-powered, lightweight, and easy on the eyes.

Ground stacked line array systems sound like dookie and should be avoided like the plague. The problem is how the LA system in such a small format will cause issues at distance. The saying " a dash array does not a line array make " is said for a reason. It looks cool, it can sell for money, but it is not the answer to the problem.

[Tim Hite]

EAW Adaptive would do that perfectly, it's more per box than your box budget, but you'll need a lot fewer boxes than a traditional array so the total amount of $$$ would be comparable at worst or usually a lot less in total.

I've done shows with 4 boxes Adaptive a side that we usually did with 8-12 boxes in the past.

Renkus Heinz has adaptive column arrays that will do fine ground stacked, as well.

[Joe Fustolo]

Renkus Heinz has adaptive column arrays that will do fine ground stacked, as well.

Dave,

I have multiple reps that can assist you with demo's of the new Renkus Heinz Steerable solutions for your space. If you would like please feel free to contact me directly and we can discuss your project and multiple options for you.

[Martin Morris]

  Hey all!  I'm looking for suggestions on line array boxes.  16 boxes should cover the space well, so just looking for a mix of musicality/SPL for regional acts.  They don't necessarily have to be rider friendly as this is an install for a private organization.  The space is a large auditorium with 60' ceilings and covering around 2500 seats on the lower level (national acts fly their own PA when needed to fill the entire auditorium which is about 5000 seats with the balcony).  One major caveat...  There is a strong potential that the organization wants ground stacks vs hangs for aesthetics/portablitliy.  I know this isn't what they're designed for, and I would strongly suggest against it, but greater powers are at play.  Another option is portable hangs which I will suggest.

 I've looked at the typical RCF HDL line, dB Technologies, and JBL offerings, just wondering if there are better options that I'm not thinking of.  I know I can find used higher end gear, BUT, that is off the table for the time being so I'm only looking for new stock.

Dave,

there's lots of good advice up thread

Please don’t take this the wrong way either ... I know what you are dealing with but as what has been previously said ...

You have to challenge the client on a compromise on the ascetics and with some minimal impact on the space and getting the PA up in the air,  WHERE IT SHOULD BE  ... END OF STORY ...


Even before choosing a loudspeaker, you have lots of work to do .... assessing the acoustics of the room – room background noise, etc ... Accurate models of how the proposed PA is going to interact with the room? - excite the room?  Direct to reverberant ratios? Based on your basic description of the room, and as Nils said it, “there’s a lot of cheddar to spread”. With a good design and some creative thinking hopefully, you won't be smearing too much cheddar onto the walls and ceiling!! - wink wink.

But I digress - if you continue to bow to their needs and plan on portable grounds stacks? you’d better get some Professional Indemnity Insurance !! - Peter Mapp of Peter Mapp & Associates, who occasional posts here, has mentioned this in the past.

My bet would be to design the space for 80% of the venue day to day needs with a small footprint box/s that could be soffit mounted – or if that can’t be achieved, disguised with some creative input from the art department. Even covered entirely with a custom cover/surround.  When the lights are dimmed know bodies going to see a little blip 50ft in the air ...  Let the touring guys hang whatever they want.

Get a demo of a Danley J7 and talk to Danley HQ as there may well be better options ... small footprint ... wink wink !!

all the best

cheers
Martin

[Nils Erickson]

...and as Nils said it, “there’s a lot of cheddar to spread”.

A lot of cheddar to SPEND, actually, but I like this version too.

[Don T. Williams]

Danley, EAW Adaptive, Martin MLA, Renkus Heinz stearable, and maybe KV Audio - another point scource advocate.  I have heard all of these demoed several times and all were impressive . . . but of course demos are usually "best case" situations.  You might be surprised that many of the touring engineers are becoming more accepting of these these brands and are not absolutely stuck on line arrays!

[ProSoundWeb Community]