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Author Topic: Drums  (Read 1823 times)

Matthias McCready

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Re: Drums
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2021, 10:19:19 AM »

One of our drummers has a fully isolated ClearSonic enclosure so we are going to try that first. What is different about ClearSonic and other brands that have been recommended?

If we enclose the drums should we use SDC or LDC for overheads since we have the Audix mics on the kick, snare, and both toms?

Sonically, I think it would clear up the sound. Aesthetically, it not be pleasing.


Why I REALLY dislike clearsonic:

1. It doesn't sound great inside. The absorption isn't that thick, and the acoustics are rubbish. Even with good mics and a good kit, it is hard to get it to sound good. Think weird resonant frequencies in your kick mic that would not be there normally. Think that your snare mic is picking up weird cymbal frequencies that would not be there without an enclosure. Think that the snare is really hard to tune inside the enclosure, but a great tuning from outside doesn't translate.
2. Clearsonic enclosures are not very structurally solid. Ie they are constantly falling apart a little bit. I have seen one collapse on a drummer more than once! I have also never worked with one that an a real door, so either it was open (LOUD) or the drummer was having to open and close a panel (risking collpase each time). This is happening increasingly as they age due to 3.
3. The absorption material disintegrates over time; Which means that the wall panels essentially become like big heavy soft old nasty pillows. This doesn't do much for your sound, and it has close to zero structural integrity. Essentially if you want a nice structure you are going need to build a plywood structure yourself, which for the price does not make sense.
4. The Clearsonic plexi attachments are a bear. Ie if your plexi comes out, have fun putting them back together. I have probably spent 20 hours wrestling with their plexi over the years.  :o

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For those reasons even if they asked $1,600 for their product new it would be too much IMO.  ???

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My favorite brand of enclosure I have used is Drumperfect (although I have heard good things about perdue).

Please note due to COVID the plexi they use is hard to get, so their enclosures look a little weird at the moment (windows instead of full panels). You could probably reach out to Chris at Drumperfect to see when manufacturing will be back to normal. 

Why do I like using it?:

1. Acoustically inside it feels fantastic, it is a nice dead space. Drum tuning carries over from outside the enclosure to inside. No weird resonant frequencies. Simply put the stuff sounds like it should. (again if you want some multitrack from inside this shoot me a PM)
2. The panels have an absorptive layer, and then an isolating hard layer (read wood). They are very strong, to the point you could put cinder blocks on the roof of this thing. If you get their clamps you can make it a semi-permanent structure. The enclosure also has a dedicated door (no maneuvering panels!).
3. My Drum perfect is by no means no, and I have had zero problems with panels. They are like new.
4. I have used my enclosure for small mobile events. It goes together quite quickly, in about 3-5 minutes if you know what shape you are doing.

They are about the same price.

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As far as condensers go I would think less of it as LDC for SDC. but more about what mics you want to use.

Although SM81's are one of my least favorite overheads I would recommend those if your budget is smaller, as they are great all purpose mic for down the road (ie you can get nicer overheads in three years, and then you have the SM81's for snare bottom, crowd mics, banjo, acoustic, or whatever else).

My personal favorite mics tend to be cost-prohibitive (SCX 25 or TLM 193), however, I have been very impressed with the Shure KSM32's. I work with them a lot right now, and they are a great mic. To the point when I did a shootout at work with MANY overheads, I actually liked them more than our 414's.

So if you can swing it those are great mic' ultimately I know there are many threads on that one, and you will find many opinions!  ;D
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Drums
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2021, 02:10:26 PM »

Do you have some old, unused choir mics (literally) hanging around? Thats what I used in our drum booth. I just hung them from the ceiling and you canít see them from the audience. Sound quality is actually pretty awesome too. Enough that I donít feel the need to upgrade.
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Nils Erickson

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Re: Drums
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2021, 02:14:14 PM »

Mute the drum mics. You might not need them.


Steve.

This, and thank you Steve.  If the drums are too loud, don't mic them.  If they are still too loud, talk to the player; explain the complaints from the congregation.  If then they are still too loud, mitigate with baffles, mutes, etc.  The drummer in my band tapes his wallet on his snare, that even helps.  Put a towel over it.

"Sound reinforcement", a concept very easily forgotten.  Three pages go by before someone mentions this, sheesh.
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Curtis McGill

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Re: Drums
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2021, 02:59:56 PM »

If I didn't have the mics on for the drums how would I set up the board for

A) the live stream? I presume pre-fade

B) the P16 send for the band?

The problem that doesn't solve though is the bleed into the mics - also mentioned a few pages back.

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Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Drums
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2021, 04:33:21 PM »

If I didn't have the mics on for the drums how would I set up the board for

A) the live stream? I presume pre-fade

B) the P16 send for the band?

The problem that doesn't solve though is the bleed into the mics - also mentioned a few pages back.

You mention P16 sends so I assume that you are using an X32 or M32 console. You can use a Mix bus send and send that to a Matrix output and don't assign the drum mics to the L/R. And you can use a Mix Bus send (or 2) for all or part of your streaming mix and only send to the matrix what you want in the streaming feed. 
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Drums
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2021, 06:31:25 PM »

If I didn't have the mics on for the drums how would I set up the board for

A) the live stream? I presume pre-fade

B) the P16 send for the band?

The problem that doesn't solve though is the bleed into the mics - also mentioned a few pages back.

Yeah, people tend to forget about the 3-4 other things those mics are needed for.

I would try to find, rent, borrow a drum booth. Listen to the major audible benefits, then have the discussion about how you can implement it visually. It's not that bad. Yes, it's a big box on the stage, but the benefits far outweigh the downsides and you'll get used to the look real fast.
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Nils Erickson

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Re: Drums
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2021, 07:28:52 PM »

If I didn't have the mics on for the drums how would I set up the board for

A) the live stream? I presume pre-fade

B) the P16 send for the band?

The problem that doesn't solve though is the bleed into the mics - also mentioned a few pages back.

Yep, set up a mix for the livestream, mixes for people's monitors, and an FOH mix without drums (or using only the drums you need.  As far as the bleed is concerned, there are really only a few solutions: have them play quieter; place them further away or out of the pattern of the mics in question; or isolate with some baffle or booth.  I prefer those options in that order, but that is just me. 

On small stages, virtually every vocal mic becomes a drum mic.  Good luck Curtis!
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Drums
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2021, 09:53:05 PM »

One of our drummers has a fully isolated ClearSonic enclosure so we are going to try that first. What is different about ClearSonic and other brands that have been recommended?

The best thing about E-Drums?  They make poor drummers sound 'passable'.
The worst thing about E-Drums?  They make great drummers sound 'passable.' 


Any drum booth, whether pre-made or DIY, is essentially two things -
1) 'Stuff' to stop the sound, and
2) 'Stuff' to absorb the sound inside

To point 1, the thicker the plexi, the elimination of gaps - the more it will keep sound from leaking through.  The Clearsonic kits I've used in the past used fairly thin plexi, with gaps.

To point 2, the more, better, thicker, etc absorption you can add, the better. 

I don't have as much hands-on experience as others, mostly just clearsonic, various DIY, and Perdue.  Perdue was the best pre-made kit I've used.  The absolute best were all DIY, but very well designed and executed.  If you want to message me, I can send photos and info on one.

If you want to build one yourself - make the whole thing on wheels, as it'll be extremely heavy. 
Use thick plexi, with something like stained wood frame, to ensure it's completely sealed and rigid. 
Use plenty of thick absorption inside, flame rated.  Message me for more info on details, what and where to get it, etc.

It's possible to get a good deal better performance from DIY than premade, for lower cost, if you have volunteers willing to put in the work. 
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Drums
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2021, 10:54:02 AM »

The best thing about E-Drums?  They make poor drummers sound 'passable'.
The worst thing about E-Drums?  They make great drummers sound 'passable.' 


Any drum booth, whether pre-made or DIY, is essentially two things -
1) 'Stuff' to stop the sound, and
2) 'Stuff' to absorb the sound inside

To point 1, the thicker the plexi, the elimination of gaps - the more it will keep sound from leaking through.  The Clearsonic kits I've used in the past used fairly thin plexi, with gaps.

To point 2, the more, better, thicker, etc absorption you can add, the better. 

I don't have as much hands-on experience as others, mostly just clearsonic, various DIY, and Perdue.  Perdue was the best pre-made kit I've used.  The absolute best were all DIY, but very well designed and executed.  If you want to message me, I can send photos and info on one.

If you want to build one yourself - make the whole thing on wheels, as it'll be extremely heavy. 
Use thick plexi, with something like stained wood frame, to ensure it's completely sealed and rigid. 
Use plenty of thick absorption inside, flame rated.  Message me for more info on details, what and where to get it, etc.

It's possible to get a good deal better performance from DIY than premade, for lower cost, if you have volunteers willing to put in the work.

If youíre going this far, donít forget to add in some kind of ventilation. The reason a lot of drum booths have gaps between panels is because they get hot inside. I know we left a gap and put a fan in ours just so the drummer doesnít die in there! Lol.

If you need to really seal it off you could duct in some moving air somehow.
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Bullwinkle: This is the amplifier, which amplifies the sound. This is the Preamplifier which, of course, amplifies the pree's.

John L Nobile

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Re: Drums
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2021, 12:49:10 PM »

The best thing about E-Drums?  They make poor drummers sound 'passable'.
The worst thing about E-Drums?  They make great drummers sound 'passable.' 
 

Brilliant!
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Re: Drums
¬ę Reply #29 on: February 18, 2021, 12:49:10 PM ¬Ľ


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