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[Rich Williams]

Hello,
Shopping for QSC-like 12" tops and someone mentioned the new Personus (Worx) CDL12.
The ABS version CDL12P is about the same price as the QSC (K12.2) and the specs are similar.
But the CDL's only have 20deg vertical, but a great 120deg horizontal. The QSC has a 75 x 75deg.

-Has anyone used these as a single pair on a pole?
-Are they only for array-ing?
-Would they work as a monitor/wedge at all?
-How do they sound?
-What's the difference between the CDL12 and the CDL12P (besides the box of wood vs plastic)? Specs are about the same except amp power and who cares if peak SPL is the same?

We want something scale-able so small venue use just a pair, but bigger venue's use more pairs, including fills and/or delays.
Really big venues(3-5,000) we would rent an array and use these as fills/delays/wedges.

Anyone have other recommendations for about $1k per speaker?

Of course we would use these with subs.

Thanks in advance,
-Rich

PS I hope this is not a duplicate, Posted this once, but could not find it.

[Caleb Dueck]

Hello,
Shopping for QSC-like 12" tops and someone mentioned the new Personus (Worx) CDL12.
The ABS version CDL12P is about the same price as the QSC (K12.2) and the specs are similar.
But the CDL's only have 20deg vertical, but a great 120deg horizontal. The QSC has a 75 x 75deg.

-Has anyone used these as a single pair on a pole?
-Are they only for array-ing?
-Would they work as a monitor/wedge at all?
-How do they sound?
-What's the difference between the CDL12 and the CDL12P (besides the box of wood vs plastic)? Specs are about the same except amp power and who cares if peak SPL is the same?

We want something scale-able so small venue use just a pair, but bigger venue's use more pairs, including fills and/or delays.
Really big venues(3-5,000) we would rent an array and use these as fills/delays/wedges.

Anyone have other recommendations for about $1k per speaker?

Of course we would use these with subs.

Thanks in advance,
-Rich

PS I hope this is not a duplicate, Posted this once, but could not find it.

This would likely be better discussed in the Lounge. 

In short - 120 deg horizontal means you're stuck with one per side, and in smaller rooms where you're trying to keep from spraying the side walls with HF - you're out of luck. 

The general $1,000-$1,500 price point has a lot of good options.  Look at Yamaha DZR, Martin CDD Live, RCF. 

You need to narrow down the size range, no speaker(s) on a stick will work for 100-3,000 people.  Set a realistic max size where it makes sense to hire out (say, 1k people), and then focus on something that will work well for 100-1,000 people.  The logistics for transport, rigging, etc for 1,500+ people size is WAY more than a few speakers on sticks or scaffold. 

Define 'subs'.  1,500 people outdoors requires real power, a few Danley TH118XL's and DNA20K4 amp work well.  If you're usually playing 200 person venues - that's a lot of money that will sit most of the time.   

[Rich Williams]

Hello,
Shopping for QSC-like 12" tops and someone mentioned the new Personus (Worx) CDL12.
The ABS version CDL12P is about the same price as the QSC (K12.2) and the specs are similar.
But the CDL's only have 20deg vertical, but a great 120deg horizontal. The QSC has a 75 x 75deg.

-Has anyone used these as a single pair on a pole?
-Are they best for array-ing?
-Would they work as a monitor/wedge at all?
-How do they sound?
-What's the difference between the CDL12 and the CDL12P (besides the box of wood vs plastic)? Specs are about the same except amp power and who cares if peak SPL is the same? Is there DSP differences?

We want something scale-able so small venue use just a pair, but bigger venue's use more pairs, including fills and/or delays.
Really big venues(3-5,000) we would rent a bigger array and use these as fills/delays/wedges.

Anyone have other recommendations for about $1k per speaker?

Of course we would use these with subs.

Thanks in advance,
-Rich

[Matthias McCready]

We want something scale-able so small venue use just a pair, but bigger venue's use more pairs, including fills and/or delays.
Really big venues(3-5,000) we would rent an array and use these as fills/delays/wedges.

PS I hope this is not a duplicate, Posted this once, but could not find it.

To add to what Caleb said.

For you to have something that you can "add more of" means that it has a small splay (say 30 to 50 degrees); depending 2-3 a side would be additive, rather than just causing an abundance of comb filtering. For small gigs this probably means more speakers; which means more weight and a more difficult load in/out. Not sure what size of transportation you have; but unless you have a box truck with a lift gate that is sitting empty waiting to be utilized this is worth considering.

Additionally, we have to look at the "horse-power" of the rig. Something in this range simply will not have SPL capability for the larger requirements.


As for using your speaker as a fill for a larger gig to supplement a larger system, it is possible it might have the SPL, but what is the benefit?
1. In the scope of your larger system by which I am presuming hang points and chain motor, 6-8x box medium format array per side, subbage, and power distro adding on two-four small little fill speakers is chump change.
2. A decent larger system (from a reputable rental company) will have processing. How does your little box fit into that processing? Unless it is the same brand, or potentially series (brand dependant here) it probably will not. The time to dial it in is probably more expensive than renting the extra few boxes.

Many companies have 8-16x identical wedges that go out to show for monitors; they might even extra than you need as they were already part of the truck pack. Does a monitor engineer really want 2-3 random wedges thrown in the mix, especially when they might have a road case with wedges in them sitting in the semi that never got unloaded?

While I see that PreSonus and QSC do technically make line arrays, I can't say I have ever run into them in the wild. I mostly see EV, Nexo, RCF, EAW, Meyer, L-Acoustics, D&B, or JBL.

Note there are a LOT of great brands (presuming correct processing is being utilized)

The way I see it.

1) Buy something in your price range and find a rental company when there is something bigger. Rich, I am not sure if you are part of band or are looking to start out; however, this works for both. Note if you are a band I would strongly consider getting your monitoring system figured out (hint IEM's will be more consistent and more cost-effective).
2) Find a small-medium local production company you like (Are they friendly? Do they show up on time? Does their gear work? Do they make the gear sound decent? etc). See what brand they are using, buy a smaller speaker that could be fill for their larger system. This will probably cost much more than $1,000 a speaker. If you form a relationship you now have a larger system you can potentially cross-rent, or at a minimum that your system is compatible with.

[Douglas R. Allen]

Hello,
Shopping for QSC-like 12" tops and someone mentioned the new Personus (Worx) CDL12.
The ABS version CDL12P is about the same price as the QSC (K12.2) and the specs are similar.
But the CDL's only have 20deg vertical, but a great 120deg horizontal. The QSC has a 75 x 75deg.

-Has anyone used these as a single pair on a pole?
-Are they best for array-ing?
-Would they work as a monitor/wedge at all?
-How do they sound?
-What's the difference between the CDL12 and the CDL12P (besides the box of wood vs plastic)? Specs are about the same except amp power and who cares if peak SPL is the same? Is there DSP differences?

We want something scale-able so small venue use just a pair, but bigger venue's use more pairs, including fills and/or delays.
Really big venues(3-5,000) we would rent a bigger array and use these as fills/delays/wedges.

Anyone have other recommendations for about $1k per speaker?

Of course we would use these with subs.

Thanks in advance,
-Rich

Although a little above your budget take a look at the DB Technologies IG3T's. The are 110 degrees L/R but 20 up, 70 down for better overall coverage.  The best thing is they are designed to add a 2nd one On Top for increased output and some steering in the vertical plane. You get the advantage of the wide coverage/output of a single speaker then more output if you couple them up.

https://www.dbtechnologies.com/en/products/ingenia/ingenia-ig3t/

   There is 4 speakers in this series. I use the IG4T's and IG2T's. Use the search feature here for more information. A video as to how the speakers in the series couple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhCYYAsTUd0

Not my video but here is 2 -  IG3T's a side and subs doing a outside show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jE9_29ISIc&feature=emb_logo&fbclid=IwAR0iRI8ePOvkzQ8rtBNP3Ho_U3K8wzusPZ6dIXExb_xRMFk4PETj2KaxvGs

Just a another speaker line to take a look at.
Take your time to find the right speaker for your needs and look at what others are using in your area too.

Douglas R. Allen

[Dave Pluke]

...someone mentioned the new Personus (Worx) CDL12.

I got a demo of those CDL12's pre-release, at their super-secret development lab.  They are really nice for what they are.  Pleasant sounding and no icepick syndrome.  They will only array vertically and I would not recommend them as monitors.  With proper subbage, they can get loud and cover full range music, but the idea of 2" cone drivers still scare me a bit.

To my thinking, they fit talking head Corporate applications and Houses of Worship.  Similar to where one might use JBL VRX932's.

In general, wood boxes will have less resonance than plastic.  But a lot depends on how hard they are driven.

Dave

[Don T. Williams]

Hello,
Shopping for QSC-like 12" tops and someone mentioned the new Personus (Worx) CDL12.
The ABS version CDL12P is about the same price as the QSC (K12.2) and the specs are similar.
But the CDL's only have 20deg vertical, but a great 120deg horizontal. The QSC has a 75 x 75deg.

-Has anyone used these as a single pair on a pole?
-Are they only for array-ing?
-Would they work as a monitor/wedge at all?
-How do they sound?
-What's the difference between the CDL12 and the CDL12P (besides the box of wood vs plastic)? Specs are about the same except amp power and who cares if peak SPL is the same?

We want something scale-able so small venue use just a pair, but bigger venue's use more pairs, including fills and/or delays.
Really big venues(3-5,000) we would rent an array and use these as fills/delays/wedges.

Anyone have other recommendations for about $1k per speaker?

Of course we would use these with subs.

Thanks in advance,
-Rich

PS I hope this is not a duplicate, Posted this once, but could not find it.

Rich

I have recently received four of the CDL12P.  I have listened to them briefly, but really haven't had a chance to evaluate them fully.  That may take some time.  My initial impression is they sound very natural.  They are especially smooth in the vocal range.  I have only heard them as a single and a pair on a stick with the matching sub.  My opinion is that in the "right" room they are a very viable choice.  That room might be a wide HOW auditorium seating maybe 400 with 3 to 4 CDL12P per side, ceiling height and seating areas dependent.  The dispersion is very wide as the specs indicate.

To try to answer your questions, they will probably work best as an array, though they can work as a pair on a "stick" but best in wider rooms.  I have not tried one as a monitor wedge but from the size and shape I would think they would be ungainly.  The big difference between this series and the CDL12 is the networking of the CDL12.  Yes this box is plastic, but it is very non-resonate.  I have not compaired it with the wood cabinet but I would be suprised if there was much difference. They are solid. Again an initial impression and obviously just my opinion, but I'm impressed with the sound compaired to some other vertical array speaker like the JBL VRX 932LPA and the Mackie DRM12A.  The smoothness and lack of harshness is noticable.  Like the VRX and DRM speakers, these are not "line arrays" and lack the supposed advantages and arrayablilty of line arrays for larger events.

As others have stated, there are a lot of options available now.  I see these as a viable option in wider rooms and maybe smaller outdoor events.  With 4 or 5 per side flown correctly the might cover 1,000+ people for moderate level events.  Might!  It is an interesting approach and I think good sounding in that price range.

[Rich Williams]

Thanks Folks for your input.
I didn't want to include too much detail in the original, so here is more info:

We will be using these almost exclusively outside.
We have a box truck with liftgate.
These days, our venues have been spread out to almost 180deg horizontally, so the coverage in that direction is important to us.
We have gear to tune a system and, if it is used outdoors, the tuning (at least for the tops) would not change much, so we would not need to spend the same time as we would in different indoor venues.

As I suspect, these probably will not work as monitors, but thought I would ask those that have tried.

My main interest is the folks who have actually tried them:
-Yes, the mini-line array of 2" tweeters is intriguing, but cone tweeters scare me also. But DOES IT WORK?
-These speakers do Dante, which is what we use. Has anyone used the Dante? Anyone used it with the Yamaha consoles?
-There is DSP in these speakers that does full parametric EQ, Compression, limiting, etc. Worx (now owned by Presonus) has an app. Anyone used it? Does this work well?
-Stacking 2 on a dual 18' sub per side looks like it might be a relatively easy set-up for venues of a few hundred people. Anyone done this?
-One big selling point is the point source of typical speakers vs the tweeter row on the stacked orientations of the CDL12's, which ends up to be one, long array that goes down to around 400 Hz. Does this make these speakers sound better (and utilize the line array concept better) than the same amount of traditional speakers? I.e does the sound "reach", or distance, SPL decay more slowly like a true array than with the same amount of traditional boxes? I.e. 2 boxes stacked with traditional speakers is not an array, but 2 of the CDL12's is 16 speakers down to almost 400 Hz.

So I'm really asking about the different design concept of this speaker from others and IF it really provides the advantages they speak of in their advertising. I want to see if these differences actually translate into real world advantages to scale-able systems.


For those haven't seen what differences they are advertising:
Videos explaining the array tweeters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-7MF-QeDD8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKAQHSqBJrU
Presonus website with features:
https://www.presonus.com/products/CDL12

Thanks again everyone for your input!

-Rich-

[Robert Lofgren]

I would investigate presonus dante offerings thoroughly before committing to it. Presonus never offered any firmware updates for their dante cards in the past, leaving users on v2.x (latest firmware offering from audinate is v4.20) where neither DDM nor aes67/st2110 was implemented among with several bugfixes and other updates missing.

The cdl12 isn’t listed as DDM-ready but e.g. the cdl18 is, suggesting that the cdl12 runs an older dante firmware.

[Don T. Williams]

The CDL12P is not the Dante version.  Douglas suggested the DB IGT 3 or IGT4.  I actually have both of those models and will set up a demo weather permitting with double stacks of those and the CDL12Ps.  I'll report back my oppinions and observations.  Some possible advantages of the IGT's are their weight and size and the beam steering available when stacked.  I have been impressed with the performance of the IGT4's outdoors but I have only heard them with a church praise band in a fairly large parking lot.  Throw is a tough thing to qualify, but the IGT4's were consistant sounding for about 100 feet.  It will be interesting to hear the comparison.  Three of the CDL12P are about the same cost as two of the IGT's.

As with anything sound related, the best thing to do is arrange a demo.  For full disclosure, I am a dealer for both DB and Presonus, but I'm not trying to make a sale.  I do not sell on line or ship products.  I purchased the IGT's for my rental stock and the CDL12P for sales stock with a particular HOW customer in mind.  I am very interested in the outcome of my demo.

[Rich Williams]

The CDL12P is not the Dante version.  Douglas suggested the DB IGT 3 or IGT4.  I actually have both of those models and will set up a demo weather permitting with double stacks of those and the CDL12Ps.  I'll report back my oppinions and observations.  Some possible advantages of the IGT's are their weight and size and the beam steering available when stacked.  I have been impressed with the performance of the IGT4's outdoors but I have only heard them with a church praise band in a fairly large parking lot.  Throw is a tough thing to qualify, but the IGT4's were consistant sounding for about 100 feet.  It will be interesting to hear the comparison.  Three of the CDL12P are about the same cost as two of the IGT's.

As with anything sound related, the best thing to do is arrange a demo.  For full disclosure, I am a dealer for both DB and Presonus, but I'm not trying to make a sale.  I do not sell on line or ship products.  I purchased the IGT's for my rental stock and the CDL12P for sales stock with a particular HOW customer in mind.  I am very interested in the outcome of my demo.

Thanks Don,
That sounds like a good demo.
I am particularly interested in the imaging and consistency of the sound between the 2.
Thanks for the heads up the CDL12 plastic versions do NOT have Dante. It looks like they also do not have DSP, correct?
That would explain why they are 1/2 the price, but have the same specs (except the amp).
The DB Technologies also sounds intriguing. Does it have a web UI or need a program to access the DSP?
Let us all know the outcome of your tests.
I am working with a church on this one as well, so it is a worship band that likes it solid and loud.
-Rich-

[Douglas R. Allen]

Thanks Don,
That sounds like a good demo.
I am particularly interested in the imaging and consistency of the sound between the 2.
Thanks for the heads up the CDL12 plastic versions do NOT have Dante. It looks like they also do not have DSP, correct?
That would explain why they are 1/2 the price, but have the same specs (except the amp).
The DB Technologies also sounds intriguing. Does it have a web UI or need a program to access the DSP?
Let us all know the outcome of your tests.
I am working with a church on this one as well, so it is a worship band that likes it solid and loud.
-Rich-

The Ingenia series uses the Db Technologies Rdnet EH system. This gives you access to 16 parametric filters, delay, amp temperatures etc.
This is an older video but you can see the basic setup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeUv4qmAqeU&feature=emb_logo

https://www.dbtechnologies.com/en/news/world-wide/2018/08/rdnet-eh-now-available/

Douglas R. Allen

[Paul G. OBrien]

Thanks for the heads up the CDL12 plastic versions do NOT have Dante. It looks like they also do not have DSP, correct?

The CDL12p definitely does have DSP... nobody builds a powered speaker without it these days, it may not have as many end user control options as the pro version.

This is an interesting cabinet but the driver count and layout isn't unique or the first to do it that way, the Bose F1 is quite similar but was never built to be arrayable.  I'm skeptical of the SPL claims for the Presonus cab, with the available amplification split 500w/500w between the 12" and 2" drivers I don't see it getting much past the low to mid 12xdB range with decent sound quality.

[Rich Williams]

The CDL12P is not the Dante version.  Douglas suggested the DB IGT 3 or IGT4.  I actually have both of those models and will set up a demo weather permitting with double stacks of those and the CDL12Ps.  I'll report back my oppinions and observations.  Some possible advantages of the IGT's are their weight and size and the beam steering available when stacked.  I have been impressed with the performance of the IGT4's outdoors but I have only heard them with a church praise band in a fairly large parking lot.  Throw is a tough thing to qualify, but the IGT4's were consistant sounding for about 100 feet.  It will be interesting to hear the comparison.  Three of the CDL12P are about the same cost as two of the IGT's.

As with anything sound related, the best thing to do is arrange a demo.  For full disclosure, I am a dealer for both DB and Presonus, but I'm not trying to make a sale.  I do not sell on line or ship products.  I purchased the IGT's for my rental stock and the CDL12P for sales stock with a particular HOW customer in mind.  I am very interested in the outcome of my demo.

Thanks Don W for offering to compare the CD12P and the IGT3/4's.
If you have time to do the test, I would love to hear the results.
Thanks,
Rich

[James Paul]

Don, curious to hear if the proposed DB & Presonus comparison ever took place.

[Don T. Williams]

James, for many reasons, that test hasn't happened yet.  I have sold a few sets of the CDL 12P's and continue to use the IGT 3's and 4's with excellent results both inside and out.  I like the smoothness of the CDL 12P's, especially with female vocals and acoustic instruments, but the systems i listened to were usually two box arrays and in small rooms with low ceilings.  I still hope to do the outdoor test when weather permits. 

[Landon Lewsaw]

Rich, check out "The Sound Couple" on YouTube if you haven't already.  He's all in with Presonus and raves about those boxes.  He likes the scalability and goes from one on a stick to flying 3 or 4 a side from a lift.  Interesting for me because I have never seen a Presonus speaker in the wild here in Western Canada...

[Thomas Le]

Off topic but apparently Worx audio is no longer a part of PreSonus/Fender.

https://audioxpress.com/news/pascal-acquires-worxaudio-from-fender-and-appoints-hugh-sarvis-to-lead-new-blaze-audio-loudspeaker-development-team

And yeah ditto I have never seen a CDL rig in the wild other than the sound couple YT listed above. They're probably one of the very few that are all in on PreSonus gear, mixer speakers and all.

[Tim McCulloch]

Off topic but apparently Worx audio is no longer a part of PreSonus/Fender.

https://audioxpress.com/news/pascal-acquires-worxaudio-from-fender-and-appoints-hugh-sarvis-to-lead-new-blaze-audio-loudspeaker-development-team

And yeah ditto I have never seen a CDL rig in the wild other than the sound couple YT listed above. They're probably one of the very few that are all in on PreSonus gear, mixer speakers and all.

Worx, formerly WoodWorx of North Carolina?  If so, they were an interesting bunch of folks 25 years ago that made some reasonably serious loudspeakers.

[Brian Jojade]

Specs are about the same except amp power and who cares if peak SPL is the same?

We want something scale-able so small venue use just a pair, but bigger venue's use more pairs, including fills and/or delays.
Really big venues(3-5,000) we would rent an array and use these as fills/delays/wedges.

1. Published specs for most speakers don't contain enough information to make a realistic comparison.  If you took all identifying information off of the spec sheet from a low end speaker and put it next to a high end speaker they end up looking nearly identical.  Until you get to hear them in real world use it's almost impossible to know what they will do.

2. The concept of scalable systems sounds awesome. Everyone wants that magic.  Reality isn't so pretty.  Small line arrays don't scale down well. They turn into expensive crappy point source systems.  While it can work in a pinch, it's not always the best idea.

What you need to do is look at what size of shows you're doing the most and build a rig for that.  If you're doing mostly crowds 500 or less, spend your money on a point source rig and rent out the rest.  If most of your shows are in the 500-2500 range, maybe a small array is worth it and using fewer boxes for the few small shows would be acceptable, although realize that renting a point source for those smaller shows would likely perform better than the non-array.

[Dave Pluke]

Worx, formerly WoodWorx of North Carolina?  If so, they were an interesting bunch of folks 25 years ago that made some reasonably serious loudspeakers.

Yes.  Their super-secret lab was located *somewhere* near Greensboro.

Dave

EDIT: this could be interesting to watch. IMHO, the presonus name didn't carry the requisite weight to compete in the market space Worx wanted.

[James Paul]

this could be interesting to watch. IMHO, the presonus name didn't carry the requisite weight to compete in the market space Worx wanted.

It should have seemed obvious (Presonus) that the Presonus CDL product line lacked the install passive box/amp configurations that could find a larger customer base, H.O.W., theaters, auditoriums. The overpriced, oversized, amp rack kit likely proved little to aid in sales to such markets. 
LINKY
I would expect the Pascal/ Blaze IT marriage to design, produce and market some future Constant Beamwidth/ Curvature systems as stated in the press release.

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