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Author Topic: Gain structure issue  (Read 2316 times)

John P. Whiteker

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Re: Gain structure issue
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2020, 10:48:35 pm »

   That is an idea.  I suppose I could run things that way, but not sure how I'd feel about myself.  Also, my Worship leader and another member of the band are becoming very well versed in the x32 because they spend lots of time there rehearsing.  They are paid staff and I'm a volunteer.  I can't always be there.  I really appreciate the help, but if they found out, I'd have a really hard time explaining a hidden main master.
    I think if I can tame some harshness in the 2-6K range on vocals, maybe I can live with the mix they desire.  This has been a struggle.  I believe this is the 10th Worship leader I've worked with.  By far the hardest, but also the most talented.  So, this has me second guessing my settings and the sound that my ears crave.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Gain structure issue
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2020, 11:32:01 pm »

   That is an idea.  I suppose I could run things that way, but not sure how I'd feel about myself.  Also, my Worship leader and another member of the band are becoming very well versed in the x32 because they spend lots of time there rehearsing.  They are paid staff and I'm a volunteer.  I can't always be there.  I really appreciate the help, but if they found out, I'd have a really hard time explaining a hidden main master.
    I think if I can tame some harshness in the 2-6K range on vocals, maybe I can live with the mix they desire.  This has been a struggle.  I believe this is the 10th Worship leader I've worked with.  By far the hardest, but also the most talented.  So, this has me second guessing my settings and the sound that my ears crave.

How do they even know what it sounds like if they are on stage playing? This may be the reason they like extra 2k to 4k since they are behind the speakers.


Either figure out how to make it work the way they want it, or go into the amps and drop the input gain. Besides. Its all just numbers printed on a chunk of metal. They really don’t mean “good mix” or “bad mix”.
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Stephen Swaffer

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Re: Gain structure issue
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2020, 01:18:19 pm »

Worship leader I've worked with.  By far the hardest, but also the most talented.  So, this has me second guessing my settings and the sound that my ears crave.

A couple thoughts on this-keep in mind that I greatly respect the pastor I work with-but sometimes to fix things you have to call the baby ugly.  :)

My pastor is very talented-and very picky.  This makes him both easy and difficult to work with at times.  I probably expend more effort learning what he wants than what I want in sound -it is his vision that is leading the service after all.

A couple years ago he wanted to replace the speakers in the auditorium-he knew that I was against it (based largely on advice from on here) so much so that he really didn't involve me much other than to let me convince him to not put in Bose line arrays.  We didn't go backwards-but there are some artifacts that are less than ideal because of too many speakers-which he has been told by more than one expert since that install. It has taken some time-but he has recognized and is ready to fix some of those issues.  Where I am going is that sometimes you have to let them do what they want to convince them that that is not what they want.  Also, his desired volume level has dropped significantly-I usually do media, but a few weeks ago I mixed a visiting quartet.  My ears are "calibrated" to what he used to want-he kept telling me to turn them down.  It used to be difficult to get the volume he wanted.

It is also easy for people to be convinced they are hearing something they are not-I've caught myself adjusting something and pleased with my adjustments-only to find out I wasn't adjusting what I thought I was-and if others are honest they'll admit doing the same thing.  Sometimes, they "expect" to hear an improvement and so they do.  I once was testing a "new" choir mic.  He and another member were raving about how much better than our old ones this was-they were standing in the choir loft belting out hymns.  Without telling them, I tweaked the old mic's settings and started switching between the mics in between lines.  They never noticed (honestly surprised myself how easily I made them sound almost identical) what I was doing and looked at me in disbelief when I told them what I was doing.  The challenge is getting everyone-yourself included-to be objective about a very subjective goal.

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John P. Whiteker

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Re: Gain structure issue
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2020, 05:46:20 pm »

How do they even know what it sounds like if they are on stage playing? This may be the reason they like extra 2k to 4k since they are behind the speakers.


Either figure out how to make it work the way they want it, or go into the amps and drop the input gain. Besides. Its all just numbers printed on a chunk of metal. They really don’t mean “good mix” or “bad mix”.

This is what I have been STRESSING so fervently to my Worship leader.  I keep telling him he likes that ear-bleeding harsh vocal because he's standing in a total deadspot behind the mains and using that as his point of reference.  He likes to "feel the room."  I get that, but I think we might try a hybrid.  Something he picked up from studying some Hillsong stuff is that they typically use wireless IEM for their vocal or their instrument, they then utilize lots of stage monitors at their feet or flown or both to act as fills for the rest of the music for them. They can run one IEM and still catch the room, or if they want the total room atmosphere, they can pop out both and wander around the stage with a house mix of sorts.  I think I like this idea.  Now, where did I find another $7K  ?? lol
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John P. Whiteker

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Re: Gain structure issue
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2020, 05:56:29 pm »

A couple thoughts on this-keep in mind that I greatly respect the pastor I work with-but sometimes to fix things you have to call the baby ugly.  :)

My pastor is very talented-and very picky.  This makes him both easy and difficult to work with at times.  I probably expend more effort learning what he wants than what I want in sound -it is his vision that is leading the service after all.

Steve,

Yes, I jump these same hurdles over and over.  My Pastor is a visionary of sorts, which most good Pastors are.  I am not.  I am a realist.  But when they have an idea, they always think it's a good one and don't like to hear otherwise.   My wife has been helping me through some of this and says the same thing you do.  You have to let them make the mistake sometimes.  Bad thing is... those are usually painful and unnecessary expenses out of a budget that I am ultimately responsible for.  I will admit though, there have been some things forced on me that ended up being good moves in the long run.  I'm probably a bit too frugal to be in charge of a Worship budget.  Stuff just costs too much and I feel like any A/V supplier or installer, electrician or any contractor like to prey on churches just knowing they're filled with money.  I hope I can build some trust and make some of their dreams come true with the sound of our services, even if I think we're going a little overboard.  I'm trying to stretch myself.  Thank you for the input.  I'm glad I'm not the only one who deals with these issues.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Gain structure issue
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2020, 08:35:59 pm »

This is what I have been STRESSING so fervently to my Worship leader.  I keep telling him he likes that ear-bleeding harsh vocal because he's standing in a total deadspot behind the mains and using that as his point of reference.  He likes to "feel the room."  I get that, but I think we might try a hybrid.  Something he picked up from studying some Hillsong stuff is that they typically use wireless IEM for their vocal or their instrument, they then utilize lots of stage monitors at their feet or flown or both to act as fills for the rest of the music for them. They can run one IEM and still catch the room, or if they want the total room atmosphere, they can pop out both and wander around the stage with a house mix of sorts.  I think I like this idea.  Now, where did I find another $7K  ?? lol

This way lies madness.


He needs to put both iems in and leave them there. Unless he wants to go deaf. If that's his goal then sure, pop out an ear and add bleeding stage monitors to compensate. Because after all, it is all about him.


Try getting him to put both iems in and put up two mics on the edge of the stage. Mix those into his ears so he can "feel" whatever he wants to feel. Give that a real hard try before doing anything else.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Gain structure issue
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2020, 08:39:34 pm »

Quote
One v. Two IEMs

To overcome some of the limitations of IEMs, such as isolation from the audience, some performers will wear just one IEM. This is not a recommended solution, and it is important that performers wear an IEM in each ear, for many reasons. Our body's natural hearing protection mechanism, the tympanic reflex, works with both ears together. Its effectiveness is diminished when one ear is protected, because it leaves the open ear more vulnerable to loud sounds. There is also a stereophonic boost (approximately 6 dB) in perceived volume when two earphones are used together. You can try this yourself with a set of earphones and an MP3 player. Start by listening to just one earphone then putting in the second without turning up the volume. The perceived volume of the first earphone will seem to increase when the second earphone is added. Therefore the converse of this, using one IEM, means the volume must be 6 dB louder to get the same perceived volume, thus exposing the IEM ear to unnecessarily excessive volume. It also halves the listening time before the onset of hearing damage.

https://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/in-ear-monitors-tips-trade-902
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John P. Whiteker

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Re: Gain structure issue
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2020, 09:14:25 pm »

https://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/in-ear-monitors-tips-trade-902

That is a great article Tim.  I do understand the madness we may be creating.  I'd really like to just do custom IEM and couple them with a Shure PSM300.  But that is a big chunk of budget for a church the size of ours.  I would honestly be pushing to get this done more for me than the worship leader.  It's not that he's that guy who has to have, "more of me" all the time.  But since he needs the room loud to hear what is going on, it incessantly wrecks my house mix that I work so hard on.  We've got to get this handled.

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Tim Weaver

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Re: Gain structure issue
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2020, 09:20:45 pm »

Maybe we are attacking the wrong problem here.

What are you using for monitors right now? And how are you feeding those monitors?
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Matthias McCready

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Re: Gain structure issue
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2020, 09:40:00 pm »

   That is an idea.  I suppose I could run things that way, but not sure how I'd feel about myself.  Also, my Worship leader and another member of the band are becoming very well versed in the x32 because they spend lots of time there rehearsing.  They are paid staff and I'm a volunteer.  I can't always be there.  I really appreciate the help, but if they found out, I'd have a really hard time explaining a hidden main master.
    I think if I can tame some harshness in the 2-6K range on vocals, maybe I can live with the mix they desire.  This has been a struggle.  I believe this is the 10th Worship leader I've worked with.  By far the hardest, but also the most talented.  So, this has me second guessing my settings and the sound that my ears crave.

Apologies if I am misunderstanding the situation but...

While there is a point in time where one must learn before they can make good decisions why are they stipulating every aspect of the mix?

If you feel unsure of your EQ choices (you may or may not) spend time training, listening, and learning. If you trust their ears (it sounds like maybe you don't) maybe you can spend some time working on some multi-tracks. Once you are there, you should be able to do what you feel you should (within the scope of the mix goals for the church).

So he is a talented musician, is he a talented mix engineer? Most great musicians I know are not great mix engineers, although there are certainly exceptions.

To the point if someone has me coming to mix, I am going to do that. That is a trust relationship between the talent and mix engineer. At the end of day the stage is out of coverage (or should be) for the PA, and that is not the place to dictate the mix from. Does the worship leader trust you?

Additionally while I am not sure what you are running for monitoring, there can be times where what the stage needs and what the room needs differ. Within reason the room should usually win. However those conversations take careful navigation and it use helpful to have some background on what they might be needing or with that particular instrument.

Not to be snarky  ;)

1. If there is not trust, do you have the skills to deserve it? If not get there.
2. If there is not trust, what steps have you taken to build it?




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Re: Gain structure issue
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2020, 09:40:00 pm »


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