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Author Topic: 2 questions...  (Read 1140 times)

Carter Taylor

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2 questions...
« on: January 17, 2006, 06:59:31 pm »

i'm asking here because even though my questions relate to a Coffe Shop named "The Rock" (Matthew 7:25) the same issues exist in many Church buildings, especially old converted buildings.
Praise and Worship music has started every Friday night there. The problem is, it is an old building, (80' x 50') concrete walls with concrete floor. Lots of large windows and a high tin ceiling. Place is quite lively. Music is being played strictly as background, not trying to project at all.
My two questions; As we are trying not to overpower the patrons, should I  boost the upper frequencies and cut the lows to cut through the chatter of people talking so people who want to listen can hear easier? Would it work? We usually have a group who strictly want to hear move forward, but the chatter is still extremely loud. Any ideas?
2nd question: for a long range goal, what about making the room more acoustic friendly, what has worked for you, what are you familiar with? Foam, etc.
Thanks,
Carter Taylor

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Austin Parker

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Re: 2 questions...
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2006, 08:29:29 pm »

With out fully knowing your venue, and going off the limited detail of it; trying to fix the acoustical issues of the building are multi faceted. Here are some questions you should consider:
Is the construction of the room sound (meaning within city code)?
How many layers of Sheetrock or plaster?
Are the walls painted or is there fabric on the walls?
Why type of floor is there?
Are the seats wood? If so how are they coated?
Do the seats have cushions?
How many people can be seated in the venue?
What is the status of the HVAC system (loud, quiet, working, not working)?
What about the lighting, are the lights noisy?
Is the room square, rectangle or some other four sided shape?
How high is the ceiling?
What type of a music playback system is there (installed low power, or high power?) What kind of music gets played?

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Austin Parker
Installer of Audio/Video/Control Systems
Moon light as an Acoustics Engineer

Carter Taylor

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Re: 2 questions...
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2006, 01:09:16 pm »

Is the construction of the room sound (meaning within city code)? Yes, City required quite a lot of work.
How many layers of Sheetrock or plaster? Only on east wall, the rest is concrete.
Are the walls painted or is there fabric on the walls? Paint only
Why type of floor is there? Concrete or hardwood
Are the seats wood? If so how are they coated? Wood seats and tables with maybe only a hard varnish.  Do the seats have cushions? No. There are only a couple couches set up in a corner, the only thing soft in the room.
How many people can be seated in the venue? 50 - 80 at a time, just guessing
What is the status of the HVAC system (loud, quiet, working, not working)? OK, been upgraded with modern units.
What about the lighting, are the lights noisy? No
Is the room square, rectangle or some other four sided shape? Yes, like a 20' X 50' rectangle with the long sides on the east and west.
How high is the ceiling? 12-15' guessing of metal.
What type of a music playback system is there (installed low power, or high power?) What kind of music gets played? Running a small 16 channel board, only using 600 watts of amps and just picked up a couple of the Peavy Impulse 100 speakers for just this venue at our local music store year end sale.
Music last week was a classical guitarist. The week before was a piano, guitar, vocal (all mic'd) and a djembe(not mic'd).
This week will be vocal, piano, guitar and other stringed instruments, more of a southern gospel feel.
We set up in the SW corner where the people who want to listen hangout in the south half. The other half is counter and tables. I asked the owner to send me some pictures so I can upload later today.
Again, our intentions as musicians is to not impose ourselves on the patrons. I have been places where the music was so loud while trying to have dinner and conversation, not enjoyable. My experience is, when you turn up the music the conversation gets louder.
We are a small town trying to start something for people of our town to go to on Friday nights. Since we started , the receipts have doubled at the coffee shop from their normal Friday nights, so people are coming.
As one of the musicians and a local who wants to see the buisness succeed, I want to see what it would take to make it more pleasant for the patrons, who want to listen or just have their own conversations. In my opinion, we need to absorb the chatter. This place was just as noisy with 4 or 5 tables talking as it was when it was standing room only. The room is that live.
Thanks for your help,
Carter Taylor
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JimCreegan

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Re: 2 questions...
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2006, 04:14:40 pm »

Carter Taylor wrote on Wed, 18 January 2006 13:09


Again, our intentions as musicians is to not impose ourselves on the patrons. I have been places where the music was so loud while trying to have dinner and conversation, not enjoyable. My experience is, when you turn up the music the conversation gets louder.
We are a small town trying to start something for people of our town to go to on Friday nights. Since we started , the receipts have doubled at the coffee shop from their normal Friday nights, so people are coming.
As one of the musicians and a local who wants to see the buisness succeed, I want to see what it would take to make it more pleasant for the patrons, who want to listen or just have their own conversations. In my opinion, we need to absorb the chatter. This place was just as noisy with 4 or 5 tables talking as it was when it was standing room only. The room is that live.
Thanks for your help,
Carter Taylor



I think your instinct to add absorbent material is the right one.  In fact I would take that as far as you can before investing any more in equipment.  There are many commercial sources for this material, most pretty expensive.  I would recommend against foam, as cheap foam is flammable and flame resistant is expensive.  I have used 2'x4'x2" stif fiberglass (duct board) covered with cloth with very good effect.  It is most effective when not touching the walls, and quite a bit would be required.  The good news is you can try making 15-20 and hanging them around, then see what happens.  Keep adding until you are happy.  Having some hanging from the ceiling will really help but your ceiling may be too low for that to look good.

You can buy something similar at 2-3 times the cost.  there are also special bass traps ment to hang from the ceiling, that are even more expensive, if you need that.

Hope this helps.

JimC

 
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Roy Richards

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Re: 2 questions...
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2006, 05:49:16 pm »

The duct board works great. I work at a TV station, and we had those panels wrapped in a nice fabric like a commercial pew cover, on the walls of our control room, and they knocked the sound way down. It kills the reflections nicely. Ours had a 2x2 frame around them that supported the board.

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Duane Massey

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Re: 2 questions...
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2006, 10:42:50 pm »

You can also build simple frames out of 2x2 in 16" increments (just like framinga wall). Put a masonite or thin plywood back, fill each cavity with paper-faced (not encapusalet) fibreglas insulation (3" thick will be fine) and cover with an open-weaved fabric, such as burlap. You can chose any color or colors, and also trim the frames with 1x2 white wood or cedar. Mount these frames  (or clouds) on the walls from 4' up and suspend from the ceiling at various angles. You don't need to cover the whole surface, just break up the reflections as much as needed. Add a few, add a few more until you've made the room workable.
You could certainly have a profeesional analyze the room, and get a better job the first time, but this DIY approach will actually help quite a bit.
You might need to either treat the fabric with a fire-retardent or use flame-retardent material. If you do try the acoustic foam, make sure it is fire-rated. Some products look like the pro stuff, but it is not!
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Duane Massey
Core Systems, Inc
Houston, Texas, USA

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: 2 questions...
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2006, 10:42:50 pm »


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