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Author Topic: On the Turning Away  (Read 2312 times)

Dennis Wiggins

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On the Turning Away
« on: November 11, 2020, 08:27:22 pm »

What to do with all these passive cabinets? 

Since around 1978, I have turned my inventory about every 4 years, while things still had resale value.  This has always worked.  2 years (or so) ago, I flipped to powered cabinets but this time made no attempt to sell my old "favvies," thinking that for some situations they might be better. 

I was wrong.  I liked them because they sound like me, not how the built-in DSP wants me to sound.  I got lazy.  I lost my identity and really miss working my Kosmos on the dance floor.  DSP killed (neutered) that.

The show will go on.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2020, 10:17:24 am by Dennis Wiggins »
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: On the Turning Away
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2020, 09:38:08 pm »

What to do with all these passive cabinets? 

Since around 1978, I have turned my inventory about every 4 years, while things still had resale value.  This has always worked.  2 years (or so) ago, I flipped to powered cabinet but this time made no attempt to sell my old "favvies," thinking that for some situations they might be better. 

I was wrong.  I liked them because they sound like me, not how the built-in DSP wants me to sound.  I got lazy.  I lost my identity and really miss working my Kosmos on the dance floor.  DSP killed (neutered) that.

The show will go on.


How can a DSP neuter your sound?  Are you talking about a Peavey Kosmos processor?  No reason you can't use it.

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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MikeHarris

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Re: On the Turning Away
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2020, 01:18:05 am »

you have reopened a can of worms....some are gonna wiggle out.
DSP has taken a bit of unique-ness once available to the experienced designer out of the currently available solutions.
I still have a box of passive networks...custom built for me by White Instruments...which plugged into the octal sockets on BGW amps to make them band-specific...like we do now with DSP.
I would love to build a new club completely analog...from source to ears
I had plans with Scotty J to redoo Eldorado Auto Skooters in Coney Island but with his untimely death we lost one of the true champions of quality dance sound.
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Dennis Wiggins

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Re: On the Turning Away
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2020, 06:57:14 am »


How can a DSP neuter your sound?  Are you talking about a Peavey Kosmos processor?  No reason you can't use it.

Yes.  When I use this effect with powered subs (specifically, ZXA1 and ELX200-18SP ) their internal 'workings' filter out most of what try to add in.  This is not unlike 'getting the tone" from a guitar amp.  My old school EV X180B dual 18s and even the sB122s (both high passed at 45hz with my own EQ/Limiting) responded quite well for well the last 2 decades.  I never blew any drivers. 

I am not complaining about the performance of powered speakers; a DXR12 over either of these powered subs sounds fantastic.  What's missing is my ability to 'play' the bottom end of the system. 

I can live with it, but miss that bit of being able to work the floor. 

-Dennis

<edit>  As tracks may wildly differ from each other, I constantly have to adjust top to sub balance via aux-fed subs.  Where  there is too much bass I roll it off.  Where there is too little or in some cases no low bass, that's where aux boost and synthesized low frequencies are added to my liking.

I do 'play' my system like an instrument.

-D
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 09:13:00 am by Dennis Wiggins »
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MikeHarris

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Re: On the Turning Away
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2020, 01:14:45 am »

that pesky worm...the biggest problem is you have had the need...the ability...and the ears to tailor the sound to get the 'feel' you seek. I dont believe DJ's today are aware of the options we used to have
As good as Powersoft or Lab Gruppen sounds on paper...a bridge mono GTA will have a better*bass sound in any dance club.
Crown MA3600/5000 a joke on low end.
We would also choose amplifiers like Bryston or UREI for the horns and tweets as they were less harsh..
.
* better = fuller..rounder..make you shake your ass
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 01:20:36 am by MikeHarris »
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: On the Turning Away
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2020, 03:41:39 pm »

When I use this effect with powered subs (specifically, ZXA1 and ELX200-18SP ) their internal 'workings' filter out most of what try to add in.  This is not unlike 'getting the tone" from a guitar amp.  My old school EV X180B dual 18s and even the sB122s (both high passed at 45hz with my own EQ/Limiting)

DSP isn't the problem here, it's what is implemented with the DSP that is. Those powered speakers will have a very steep high pass filter whereas the roll-your-own setup you had with the old EV passives most likely had a very shallow filter... so more low frequency energy got though with the Kosmos boost. The solution is better powered subs.. something with real output down into the 30hz range.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 03:44:29 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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Dennis Wiggins

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Re: On the Turning Away
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2020, 03:58:45 pm »

DSP isn't the problem here, it's what is implemented with the DSP that is. Those powered speakers will have a very steep high pass filter whereas the roll-your-own setup you had with the old EV passives most likely had a very shallow filter... so more low frequency energy got though with the Kosmos boost. The solution is better powered subs.. something with real output down into the 30hz range.

"Do try this at home" was always my motto.   "Have knob, will turn" is another.

X180Bs were high-passed BW24 @40hz EQ Freq 50 BW 0.4 +4.5

sB112s BW48 @48hz EQ  Freq 57 BW 0.4 +4.5. 

Output Limiters on both were +9 2.5:1 10/100ms. 

I created these settings by trial and ear-roar and could push the "haystack" hard to good effect. 

The new system is very easy and satisfying to run, but my ego says "I want more control!"

 I'll get over this :)

« Last Edit: November 16, 2020, 06:41:54 pm by Dennis Wiggins »
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: On the Turning Away
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2020, 06:46:39 pm »

X180Bs were high-passed BW24 @40hz EQ Freq 50 BW 0.4 +4.5

Well so much for that theory so maybe it was just a case of more subbage, how many of those dual 18s did you use and how were they powered, and how many powered subs do you use now? You would probably need 4 of those ELX subs to equal one X180B loaded dual 18s in SPL.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 06:49:00 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: On the Turning Away
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2020, 09:21:30 am »


As good as Powersoft or Lab Gruppen sounds on paper...a bridge mono GTA will have a better*bass sound in any dance club.
Crown MA3600/5000 a joke on low end.
We would also choose amplifiers like Bryston or UREI for the horns and tweets as they were less harsh..


A brief search online didn't turn up anything about GTA amplifiers.

Which Powersoft or Lab amps did you try?

I suspect there are a lot of people around that would also disagree with your assessment of the Crown MA5000VZ. I have a good-condition MA5002VZ here and find it sounds remarkably HiFi when running full-range, and has plenty of power on tap. I also find that those amps often suffer from sub-par repair work (ie, replacing only some of the output transistors, rather than a full matched set), which would directly impact performance.

Chris
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Milt Hathaway

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Re: On the Turning Away
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2020, 11:07:01 am »

A brief search online didn't turn up anything about GTA amplifiers.

I'll bet he's talking about BGW's 78 pound monster: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a3dhiq0l92fedy0/BGW-GTA.pdf?dl=0

I still have a few keeping my warehouse foundation from floating off into space.
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Re: On the Turning Away
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2020, 11:07:01 am »


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