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Author Topic: Options on new Line Array install  (Read 2076 times)

Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2020, 03:28:03 pm »

Thanks for the heads up! Hopefully this works...



Not a critique but usually if you send me a plot like that I would ask for a graph with colours stepped at 3 dB increments. It's just too easy to hide issues with a plot like that, although that one looks good.

Also not sure if that plot has any height information on it, probably not, I would want both a section and plan if that is the case.

I am not saying this for you, I'm sure you know all this, more for OP so that if he is getting plots from integrators he can easily stop who is selling BS. It is very easy to make a plot lie if you don't pay attention to the details, it is only a graph after all.
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2020, 05:31:08 pm »

Not a critique but usually if you send me a plot like that I would ask for a graph with colours stepped at 3 dB increments. It's just too easy to hide issues with a plot like that, although that one looks good.

Also not sure if that plot has any height information on it, probably not, I would want both a section and plan if that is the case.

I am not saying this for you, I'm sure you know all this, more for OP so that if he is getting plots from integrators he can easily stop who is selling BS. It is very easy to make a plot lie if you don't pay attention to the details, it is only a graph after all.

Agreed on the 3dB (or 2dB even) color increments.  Also plots at 4kHz, 250Hz, and 50Hz (at minimum), and frequency response graphs of each market point overlaid to see how well the frequency response overlays, even as the SPL falls off with distance.   This is why boxes like the d&b 24S, for example, are so amazing - they don't have the pure sound quality of Danley but can give excellent tonal evenness. 

With EASE Focus (for example) - I typically aim for a 10 dB colors window, to make the differences more extreme.  The auto setting is often closer to 20dB or so, which makes a 6dB difference seem minimal. 

I'm not as worried about a horizontal plot, although they are easy to do; rather, a plot with walls/ceiling/etc turned on to see how much gak will be reflected off the walls - as well as which areas would do best with spot acoustic treatment. 

It's sad how often integrators (not directed at you Scott!) either purposefully or ignorantly use SPL plots as simply a sales gimmick. 
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2020, 05:34:05 pm »



I'm not as worried about a horizontal plot, although they are easy to do; rather, a plot with walls/ceiling/etc turned on to see how much gak will be reflected off the walls - as well as which areas would do best with spot acoustic treatment. 
 

Based off the plot shown, that room is going to need a lot of back wall treatment....
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2020, 06:17:25 pm »

Based off the plot shown, that room is going to need a lot of back wall treatment....

Agreed. 

Topic swerve - largest venue when I was in college (4k seats) had a perfectly angled rear wall, that focused and mid stage center.  Even with 100% coverage with 1" treatment (never use 1", ever, but I digress) - the slapback from a snare hit was nearly as loud as the actual snare hit.  I forget the exact tempo, but you could drum along with yourself if you got the tempo right. 
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Scott Carneval

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2020, 02:02:13 pm »

Not a critique but usually if you send me a plot like that I would ask for a graph with colours stepped at 3 dB increments. It's just too easy to hide issues with a plot like that, although that one looks good.

Also not sure if that plot has any height information on it, probably not, I would want both a section and plan if that is the case.

I am not saying this for you, I'm sure you know all this, more for OP so that if he is getting plots from integrators he can easily stop who is selling BS. It is very easy to make a plot lie if you don't pay attention to the details, it is only a graph after all.

Agreed, stepped colors can help, but I have measurement mics with their dB readout turned on which can help show the same information. I spent about 10-15 minutes building this model so I didn't change any of the default settings except switch the center frequency from 1kHz (default) to 2kHz. The idea was more to show that these two speakers can do the job for less money than the previously mentioned line array solution. If I was going to proceed with installing these I would probably spend some more time tweaking the position and angle of the speakers. It looks like there's a little more overlap on the front of the stage than I would like to see, but if you move the cluster forward then the extreme front corners start to lose coverage. It might make sense to put a couple fills in those two spots if the budget would allow.

As for the height, the OP estimated the ceiling height to be 25' so I put the cluster at 23' just to be safe.
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RalphAtkinson

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2020, 06:10:13 am »

Quote
With that being said you need to using the modeling software provided by the vendors and verify the performance of the design.  The anecdotal evidence you receive on the forum or anywhere else in insufficient.   The only way anyone would know is to model the system.  You could also just stop and start looking for an integrator.


You need to be very careful in choosing one.  Some integrator are very lax in the design phase and push their product portfolio.  There are many who advocate for using an independent consultant for the design phase.  It can be be a bit more expensive but you are guaranteed an autonomous design.  If you choose an integrator or designer don't prejudice them with any preferences.  I would ask for initial point source and line source designs.

I totally agree that you should be doing your research on finding a good integrator in your area. Ask around other churches, venues, recent installations, and get some references to find out who is designing and installing good systems in your area.

It looks like you are passionate about good sound, and that is great! You should not be scared about being locked out of the design process. A good integrator should work with you and be able to explain your options and choices. One small part i disagree with is "not steering" the integrator. You should not steer the integrator however it is perfectly fine for you to tell the integrator the systems & experiences that you have enjoyed as that will frame up some of your expectations for the integrator. There is nothing wrong with that... and in fact it can also help the integrator to advise you of what may or may not be reasonable to expect in your venue... after all, the room has a major impact on the sound.

A good integrator will not cost you extra, in fact, they will be invaluable in ensuring you do not waste money.

Good luck with your project.

Ralph
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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2020, 06:10:13 am »


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