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Author Topic: Options on new Line Array install  (Read 763 times)

Scott Holtzman

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2020, 03:41:15 am »

Hey Scott,

I'm old school and tend to stick with what's proven and have seen line arrays in many small theaters in NYC and they sound great. True, line arrays do not work in every venue. A few years ago line arrays were setup at Carnegie Hall for the annual JVC Jazz festival and it was a disaster. The mixing engineer spent the whole night fighting the room acoustics instead of mixing the band. Carnegie Hall is a place where you drop a pin on stage and you can hear it on the last row.

I won't have a Carnegie Hall type of room so I think the EAW RSX208L are a possible nice choice with 2 hangs of 5 elements each and some side fillers. Am I married to EAW? No, but It's a company I trust with great quality speakers.

On the other hand, I'm researching Fulcrum and Danley (as suggested here). For example the DX and CCX series are installed mainly in halls and recitals according to the profiles Fulcrum has listed. That concerns me since I can not envision installing a 20 speaker spread around the sanctuary.

One thing I failed to mention is that currently there's 90ft. from edge of stage to back wall. However, the back walls are removable and add another 12 ft for a total of 102ft. with an seating capacity for 1600 people.

I continue open to other options but I will have to find dealers / showrooms to hear the Fulcrums and Danleys.

Once again I appreciate your feedback.

Marc


You don't need 20 speakers spread across the front.  I am not familiar with the Fulcrum series. I am with the Danley and I think three speakers will cover 90 feet of width.


First I want to make sure you understand that the folks participating in this thread have literally decades of assisting houses of worship achieve their goals.  The consensus is people with little or no experience in the church envision solutions then drive towards selecting the best wrong solution.  The results are usually catastrophic  Frankly you should not be worried about picking which speaker you should buy.  That is the last step.  You need to clearly dictate the results from the system.  Sound Pressure Levels and frequency response goals must be decided then a system designed to meet these goals using the most appropriate and cost effective products.  The vendor that will best support you and form a relationship with your church to achieve those goals is far more important than the products they use to accomplish the goals.  The integrator is responsible for system performance.  If there design is non conforming they will be required to fix it.  If the church purchases the components and attempts to function in the role of integrator they have accepted the liability of design errors.  Is this worth saving a few bucks?  Are you qualified to design the system and comfortable risking the capital?


With that being said you need to using the modeling software provided by the vendors and verify the performance of the design.  The anecdotal evidence you receive on the forum or anywhere else in insufficient.   The only way anyone would know is to model the system.  You could also just stop and start looking for an integrator.


You need to be very careful in choosing one.  Some integrator are very lax in the design phase and push their product portfolio.  There are many who advocate for using an independent consultant for the design phase.  It can be be a bit more expensive but you are guaranteed an autonomous design.  If you choose an integrator or designer don't prejudice them with any preferences.  I would ask for initial point source and line source designs.


When talking about line arrays you have to understand how they work.  A line length of 5 boxes is insufficient to establish the pattern control that is the primary benefit of a line array.  Line arrays are also far more costly than a single point source box.


I had been making very short comments and wanted to take the time to let you know what was on my mind.  It bothers me greatly to see churches waste money.  Often then end up replacing entire systems that were not designed properly.  My goal is to help you avoid that pitfall and be good stewards of your resources.


I hope this helped.


Best regards....Scott
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Dave Garoutte

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2020, 12:54:11 pm »

There was an article here a while ago about why churches often take three tries to get the PA right.
I unsuccessfully did a quick search.
Basically it was planning and budget problems, causing the clients to spend way more than if they had done it right in the first place.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 01:00:29 pm by Dave Garoutte »
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Philip Roberts

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2020, 02:59:51 pm »

There was an article here a while ago about why churches often take three tries to get the PA right.
Here's the article Dave references:
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

As you can see from it's publication date this isn't a new problem :/

Philip
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2020, 03:38:12 pm »

Here's the article Dave references:
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

As you can see from it's publication date this isn't a new problem :/

Philip
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Marc Sebastian

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2020, 09:29:52 pm »


You don't need 20 speakers spread across the front.  I am not familiar with the Fulcrum series. I am with the Danley and I think three speakers will cover 90 feet of width.


First I want to make sure you understand that the folks participating in this thread have literally decades of assisting houses of worship achieve their goals.  The consensus is people with little or no experience in the church envision solutions then drive towards selecting the best wrong solution.  The results are usually catastrophic  Frankly you should not be worried about picking which speaker you should buy.  That is the last step.  You need to clearly dictate the results from the system.  Sound Pressure Levels and frequency response goals must be decided then a system designed to meet these goals using the most appropriate and cost effective products.  The vendor that will best support you and form a relationship with your church to achieve those goals is far more important than the products they use to accomplish the goals.  The integrator is responsible for system performance.  If there design is non conforming they will be required to fix it.  If the church purchases the components and attempts to function in the role of integrator they have accepted the liability of design errors.  Is this worth saving a few bucks?  Are you qualified to design the system and comfortable risking the capital?


With that being said you need to using the modeling software provided by the vendors and verify the performance of the design.  The anecdotal evidence you receive on the forum or anywhere else in insufficient.   The only way anyone would know is to model the system.  You could also just stop and start looking for an integrator.


You need to be very careful in choosing one.  Some integrator are very lax in the design phase and push their product portfolio.  There are many who advocate for using an independent consultant for the design phase.  It can be be a bit more expensive but you are guaranteed an autonomous design.  If you choose an integrator or designer don't prejudice them with any preferences.  I would ask for initial point source and line source designs.


When talking about line arrays you have to understand how they work.  A line length of 5 boxes is insufficient to establish the pattern control that is the primary benefit of a line array.  Line arrays are also far more costly than a single point source box.


I had been making very short comments and wanted to take the time to let you know what was on my mind.  It bothers me greatly to see churches waste money.  Often then end up replacing entire systems that were not designed properly.  My goal is to help you avoid that pitfall and be good stewards of your resources.


I hope this helped.


Best regards....Scott

Thank you Scott. That is the reason I came here to broaden my horizon and to connect once again since I've been out of the game for a very long time.

I agree with you guys 100%, we one have one bullet and can not miss.

I'm starting to talk to systems integrators and evaluate the options.

Thank you very much gentlemen.

Best regards,

Marc


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Marc Sebastian

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2020, 09:34:53 pm »

Here's the article Dave references:
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

As you can see from it's publication date this isn't a new problem :/

Philip

Thank you Phillip and Dave. I really appreciate this article.

Marc

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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2020, 09:35:48 pm »

Marc-

I think you really, really, really, really (did I say really?) need to use EAW's coverage prediction software and look at what 5 boxes of RSX208L will do.  If you're not disappointed you didn't do something right in the prediction.  I say this not because there's a problem with the RSX or the software, but because frankly 5 compact line array element doth not a line array make.  I call them "dash arrays". They're expensive for their substandard performance compared to a longer (usually much longer) line and generally are not superior in coverage or evenness of tonality when compared to more traditional loudspeakers.
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Scott Carneval

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2020, 02:19:21 pm »

Hey guys,

We are currently purchasing a church building with a sanctuary capacity for 1250. The sound system is 25 years old (installed 1995) and I am seeking advice before we hire a professional installer to do this line array rigging.
The sanctuary is a circular building with a 180-degree seating audience (see floor plan below). The circular width is 132 ft and the distance from the edge of the stage to last seating row is 80 ft. The mixing engineer controls are a few feet back at 90 ft. Ceiling is about 25 ft high.
The music is mainly pop/rock worship and generally when I mix, I keep levels in the low 90s db. The band is 8 vocals and 7 musicians.

Speakers considerations:
Because of budget limitations, I was originally thinking we can get away with the JBL VRX-932LAP (5 per hang) but as I have been researching these, most people agree that they drop off tremendously after 50 ft. distance.

Then I started looking / researching into the RCF HDL 20-A. These are great speakers and fit our budget which is about $3K per element. My only issue is that these are old / dated technology from 2012 and I feel we would be doing a new installation with old equipment.

As I kept researching, I went to my favorite brand EAW. As a teenager in the 80s, every time I attended a concert and I saw EAW I was blown away. The memories of those musical experiences always brought me to compare EAW to a BMW. Having a very limited budget, I said to myself; do not waste your time looking at EAW, it is out of your league. But I was extremely surprised to find the RSX208L. They are about $3K per element and are “everything ready”. I have not heard them yet but the specs on paper  and what people are saying (see review from Larry Taylor https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=168019.0), makes these boxes my number one choice so far. EAW markets the RADIUS SERIES for the quick and go setup but in our case, it will be a permanent installation. I am open to suggestions.

Number of hangs considerations:
The 180-degree dilemma: Should we go with 2 or 3 hangs? The coverage area is so wide that I am thinking that 2 hangs of 5 elements will not cover evenly the audience. Also, it is obvious that the budget will be greatly impacted if 3 are needed. Maybe we can do 2 hangs of 6 boxes. What are your thoughts?

As I get ready to play with EAW Mosaic software, I would appreciate any advice. I am open to suggestions.

Thank you,
Marc

Hey Marc,

Here's a quick and dirty model I made using Danley Direct based on the image you provided. This is just a pair of SH96HO, and you could probably get the PAIR for the cost of one hang of 5 of the EAW RSX208L. They're passive, so you would need a Danley DNA20K4 amplifier (a single amplifier will drive the pair of speakers) but it would still cost less than the EAW solution and give FAR better results.

Where are you located? Chances are there's a dealer on this forum who could help you out with a demo or handle the whole install for you.

EDiT: It's a shame this forum limits attachments to 512kb, but I can email you a larger version if you'd like.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2020, 02:45:08 pm »

Hey Marc,

Here's a quick and dirty model I made using Danley Direct based on the image you provided. This is just a pair of SH96HO, and you could probably get the PAIR for the cost of one hang of 5 of the EAW RSX208L. They're passive, so you would need a Danley DNA20K4 amplifier (a single amplifier will drive the pair of speakers) but it would still cost less than the EAW solution and give FAR better results.

Where are you located? Chances are there's a dealer on this forum who could help you out with a demo or handle the whole install for you.

EDiT: It's a shame this forum limits attachments to 512kb, but I can email you a larger version if you'd like.


I don't use the built in file system, this web site https://imgbb.com/ requires no registration and will generate the BB code that you paste right in your post.  That allows for full resolution inline messages and thumbnail previews.  Make sure you use bbcode option and not just link to picture.
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Scott Carneval

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2020, 02:52:33 pm »


I don't use the built in file system, this web site https://imgbb.com/ requires no registration and will generate the BB code that you paste right in your post.  That allows for full resolution inline messages and thumbnail previews.  Make sure you use bbcode option and not just link to picture.

Thanks for the heads up! Hopefully this works...

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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2020, 02:52:33 pm »


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