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Author Topic: Options on new Line Array install  (Read 1330 times)

Marc Sebastian

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Options on new Line Array install
« on: June 12, 2020, 08:11:29 pm »

Hey guys,

We are currently purchasing a church building with a sanctuary capacity for 1250. The sound system is 25 years old (installed 1995) and I am seeking advice before we hire a professional installer to do this line array rigging.
The sanctuary is a circular building with a 180-degree seating audience (see floor plan below). The circular width is 132 ft and the distance from the edge of the stage to last seating row is 80 ft. The mixing engineer controls are a few feet back at 90 ft. Ceiling is about 25 ft high.
The music is mainly pop/rock worship and generally when I mix, I keep levels in the low 90s db. The band is 8 vocals and 7 musicians.

Speakers considerations:
Because of budget limitations, I was originally thinking we can get away with the JBL VRX-932LAP (5 per hang) but as I have been researching these, most people agree that they drop off tremendously after 50 ft. distance.

Then I started looking / researching into the RCF HDL 20-A. These are great speakers and fit our budget which is about $3K per element. My only issue is that these are old / dated technology from 2012 and I feel we would be doing a new installation with old equipment.

As I kept researching, I went to my favorite brand EAW. As a teenager in the 80s, every time I attended a concert and I saw EAW I was blown away. The memories of those musical experiences always brought me to compare EAW to a BMW. Having a very limited budget, I said to myself; do not waste your time looking at EAW, it is out of your league. But I was extremely surprised to find the RSX208L. They are about $3K per element and are “everything ready”. I have not heard them yet but the specs on paper  and what people are saying (see review from Larry Taylor https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=168019.0), makes these boxes my number one choice so far. EAW markets the RADIUS SERIES for the quick and go setup but in our case, it will be a permanent installation. I am open to suggestions.

Number of hangs considerations:
The 180-degree dilemma: Should we go with 2 or 3 hangs? The coverage area is so wide that I am thinking that 2 hangs of 5 elements will not cover evenly the audience. Also, it is obvious that the budget will be greatly impacted if 3 are needed. Maybe we can do 2 hangs of 6 boxes. What are your thoughts?

As I get ready to play with EAW Mosaic software, I would appreciate any advice. I am open to suggestions.

Thank you,
Marc
« Last Edit: June 12, 2020, 09:05:29 pm by Marc Sebastian »
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2020, 03:41:19 am »

Hey guys,

We are currently purchasing a church building with a sanctuary capacity for 1250. The sound system is 25 years old (installed 1995) and I am seeking advice before we hire a professional installer to do this line array rigging.
The sanctuary is a circular building with a 180-degree seating audience (see floor plan below). The circular width is 132 ft and the distance from the edge of the stage to last seating row is 80 ft. The mixing engineer controls are a few feet back at 90 ft. Ceiling is about 25 ft high.
The music is mainly pop/rock worship and generally when I mix, I keep levels in the low 90s db. The band is 8 vocals and 7 musicians.

Speakers considerations:
Because of budget limitations, I was originally thinking we can get away with the JBL VRX-932LAP (5 per hang) but as I have been researching these, most people agree that they drop off tremendously after 50 ft. distance.

Then I started looking / researching into the RCF HDL 20-A. These are great speakers and fit our budget which is about $3K per element. My only issue is that these are old / dated technology from 2012 and I feel we would be doing a new installation with old equipment.

As I kept researching, I went to my favorite brand EAW. As a teenager in the 80s, every time I attended a concert and I saw EAW I was blown away. The memories of those musical experiences always brought me to compare EAW to a BMW. Having a very limited budget, I said to myself; do not waste your time looking at EAW, it is out of your league. But I was extremely surprised to find the RSX208L. They are about $3K per element and are “everything ready”. I have not heard them yet but the specs on paper  and what people are saying (see review from Larry Taylor https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=168019.0), makes these boxes my number one choice so far. EAW markets the RADIUS SERIES for the quick and go setup but in our case, it will be a permanent installation. I am open to suggestions.

Number of hangs considerations:
The 180-degree dilemma: Should we go with 2 or 3 hangs? The coverage area is so wide that I am thinking that 2 hangs of 5 elements will not cover evenly the audience. Also, it is obvious that the budget will be greatly impacted if 3 are needed. Maybe we can do 2 hangs of 6 boxes. What are your thoughts?

As I get ready to play with EAW Mosaic software, I would appreciate any advice. I am open to suggestions.

Thank you,
Marc


Why are you wasting your money on a line array for such a small facility? 
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Dave Garoutte

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2020, 12:48:48 pm »

Look at Danley.  They surely have the perfect solution for you.
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2020, 04:25:02 pm »

Look at Danley.  They surely have the perfect solution for you.

Agreed. 

The RSX 208L is great for the price, and actually decent overall - but it's not Danley level. 

Run away from VRX, KLA, and any of the 'fake' line arrays.  The HDL20 I've also installed, and it's definitely a step down in sound quality from EAW RSX. 

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Marc Sebastian

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2020, 08:26:15 pm »

Never heard of Danley but I'll look into it.

Thank you gentlemen!
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2020, 09:45:28 pm »

Never heard of Danley but I'll look into it.

Thank you gentlemen!

Danley is super solid.  Have a look at Fulcrum Acoustic as well.  You surely don't need 10 vertical array elements, plus outfills, to do this.   

https://www.fulcrum-acoustic.com/
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2020, 02:33:55 am »

Never heard of Danley but I'll look into it.

Thank you gentlemen!


You didn't answer the question on why you are biased to line arrays?
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Jason Raboin

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2020, 01:03:41 pm »

If you are into the EAW of last century, the folks who were responsible for those products are mostly now at Fulcrum Acoustic.  They are even manufacturing in the old EAW space.  Fantastic sounding speaker systems with many choices of dispersion and SPL.  I don't think there are better sounding conventional speakers, Danley included.

At first glance I would look at 3 per side CCX1265 per side, or the FH series is truly stunning and has even better pattern control than the CCX.

If the client is demanding line array even though you can truly get better results in that space without it, the FL283 is great.  You could do 4 per side and then a CCX12 for out fill. 
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2020, 10:42:56 pm »

If you are into the EAW of last century, the folks who were responsible for those products are mostly now at Fulcrum Acoustic.  They are even manufacturing in the old EAW space.  Fantastic sounding speaker systems with many choices of dispersion and SPL.  I don't think there are better sounding conventional speakers, Danley included.

At first glance I would look at 3 per side CCX1265 per side, or the FH series is truly stunning and has even better pattern control than the CCX.

If the client is demanding line array even though you can truly get better results in that space without it, the FL283 is great.  You could do 4 per side and then a CCX12 for out fill.

Sounds like our CCX experience is slightly different.  The DX12 is great, the CX12 low-mids limit too soon and it gets harsh.  The CCX has some oddness I couldn't quite sort out. 

Overall though, yes Fulcrum sounds great, especially DX12, TS215, and TS221. 
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Marc Sebastian

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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2020, 01:05:03 am »


You didn't answer the question on why you are biased to line arrays?

Hey Scott,

I'm old school and tend to stick with what's proven and have seen line arrays in many small theaters in NYC and they sound great. True, line arrays do not work in every venue. A few years ago line arrays were setup at Carnegie Hall for the annual JVC Jazz festival and it was a disaster. The mixing engineer spent the whole night fighting the room acoustics instead of mixing the band. Carnegie Hall is a place where you drop a pin on stage and you can hear it on the last row.

I won't have a Carnegie Hall type of room so I think the EAW RSX208L are a possible nice choice with 2 hangs of 5 elements each and some side fillers. Am I married to EAW? No, but It's a company I trust with great quality speakers.

On the other hand, I'm researching Fulcrum and Danley (as suggested here). For example the DX and CCX series are installed mainly in halls and recitals according to the profiles Fulcrum has listed. That concerns me since I can not envision installing a 20 speaker spread around the sanctuary.

One thing I failed to mention is that currently there's 90ft. from edge of stage to back wall. However, the back walls are removable and add another 12 ft for a total of 102ft. with an seating capacity for 1600 people.

I continue open to other options but I will have to find dealers / showrooms to hear the Fulcrums and Danleys.

Once again I appreciate your feedback.

Marc
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 01:09:20 am by Marc Sebastian »
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Re: Options on new Line Array install
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2020, 01:05:03 am »


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