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Author Topic: Will this speaker be louder than that one?  (Read 514 times)

Mike Caldwell

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2020, 08:17:28 pm »

It sounds like your system was thrown together, turned on and when sound came out it was called good, hopefully not to that extreme!!!

All that aside and assuming the installers even thought about this in the first place there are kind of two schools of thought on front fill speakers, one is that the front fill is clearly heard and sort of hitting you in the face, the other is that the level is brought up just enough to fill in the void of sound from the mains but not draw attention to the speaker as being the sound source.

An easy test would be to have the system on and playing some music and while your in the front row have someone turn off the front fill amp and see what that does to the perceived sound.
When turned off if there is a big hole in the sound coverage then the front fills are doing their job without drawing attention to themselves.

Jeff Lelko

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2020, 09:57:00 pm »

Hi Bruce.  Just to ask the question, what were the actual requirements for this project that were given to the installer?  I’m not trying to defend them as I too think you got the short end of the deal on this, but if the contract only said something along the lines of “install new speakers” or “speakers must be line array elements” then you’re not going to have any contractual mechanisms to make the contractor fix this.  What did your contract and/or Statement of Work prescribe?
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2020, 06:48:32 am »

Also, the church member who managed the install never specified any speaker management (DSP) at all, and the system was never tuned.
 ( 3-box line array)
The front fills just need to add a little energy on each side at the very front where the mains fall off.
No DSP to control the system is a big oversight and a result of someone making decisions that doesn't have the experience required.
3 box "line array"...not so much...
Seems like your front fills are where they need to be.

Forget about speaker "sensitivity"...let it go.
Changing the levels on the amps would be a place to start with lowering the volume of the main system and raising the master on the mixer. This would have the effect of "raising" the level of the front fill.
Do this in small increments to see if you can get the results you need.
Level and EQ adjustments are an important part of getting a system to work well and a system DSP is a good way to achieve that. It locks in the appropriate parameters and keeps it safe from those who " think" they know better. ;)

While I understand your "political" situation, as noted in other replies, get a pro in there and get it sorted out. There is no value in spending some money and not getting the results required!
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Bruce Wallick

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2020, 10:15:26 am »


All that aside and assuming the installers even thought about this in the first place there are kind of two schools of thought on front fill speakers, one is that the front fill is clearly heard and sort of hitting you in the face, the other is that the level is brought up just enough to fill in the void of sound from the mains but not draw attention to the speaker as being the sound source.

An easy test would be to have the system on and playing some music and while your in the front row have someone turn off the front fill amp and see what that does to the perceived sound.
When turned off if there is a big hole in the sound coverage then the front fills are doing their job without drawing attention to themselves.

I agree a fill should be just enough to supplement what's coming off the stage and clarify the pastor's voice when preaching. Thanks for your helpful idea on how to gauge fill level.
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Bruce Wallick

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2020, 10:18:18 am »


Changing the levels on the amps would be a place to start with lowering the volume of the main system and raising the master on the mixer. This would have the effect of "raising" the level of the front fill.
Do this in small increments to see if you can get the results you need.


Thanks for your helpful idea to bring down the other speakers until the fill sounds right. That was my plan too. We have excess output signal available from the console, which also has sufficient capability to EQ all the amp sends.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 10:20:43 am by Bruce Wallick »
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2020, 12:14:35 pm »

I agree a fill should be just enough to supplement what's coming off the stage and clarify the pastor's voice when preaching. Thanks for your helpful idea on how to gauge fill level.

To take front fills to another level is to have the front fills on a separate post fade mix so can only send to the front fills what is truly needed in them like vocals and unamplified stage instruments, ect.

Caleb Dueck

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2020, 01:25:46 pm »

To take front fills to another level is to have the front fills on a separate post fade mix so can only send to the front fills what is truly needed in them like vocals and unamplified stage instruments, ect.

How is this better?  Lip fills are an integral part of the overall speaker system to ensure even coverage, not an extension of the instruments.  I've seen this (separate lip fill mix) mentioned a few times, but have never found any (well-designed, well-implemented, installed church system) real world examples where it worked better.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2020, 01:57:05 pm »

How is this better?  Lip fills are an integral part of the overall speaker system to ensure even coverage, not an extension of the instruments.  I've seen this (separate lip fill mix) mentioned a few times, but have never found any (well-designed, well-implemented, installed church system) real world examples where it worked better.

I agree, but my fills are driven via a matrix which has the "base" level sent from the LR master fader. I then can add any instruments or vocals to that base level via an aux which can also feed that matrix. This has some upside, and some downside.

I can raise and lower the volume of the entire room via my master fader. I can't (easily) keep those extra sends in perfect relationship with my master level though. (I actually could with the CL5's fader groups, but not every console has this feature)



OP, please list some details of your system and room! You literally have some of the best audio talent in the world sitting here twiddling their thumbs! This place has been so slow lately we need a mystery to sleuth upon!
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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2020, 01:57:05 pm »


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