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Author Topic: Will this speaker be louder than that one?  (Read 523 times)

Bruce Wallick

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Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« on: June 10, 2020, 03:17:34 pm »

With both being 8 ohm impedance, and assuming the same input power, I think speaker 2 will be only marginally louder than speaker 1 below. #2 is physically larger, but I don't think that matters here. The higher SPL will make it louder, with a larger input signal, but they will be driven by the same amp and power level.

SPEAKER 1
Sensitivity: 90 dB2
Max SPL (calculated): 109 dB (115 dB Peak)
2Half space (on wall) averaged 100 Hz 10 kHz, 1 W.

SPEAKER 2
Axial sensitivity1: 91 dB (1 W/1 m)
Max. calculated SPL[SIZE="1"]1[/SIZE]: 120 dB
1Full-space measurement.

The background is we just had a new install at church and the front fill speakers aren't loud enough. We put the smaller ones at the front fill position and the larger ones for the balcony, but may want to reverse their locations. But only if speaker 2 will be louder by 3dB or more.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2020, 04:17:37 pm »

You need help from a good install company.

If those measurements can be trusted (doubtful) and if they are accurate, (also doubtful), at what frequency have they been measured at? Speaker 2 might be twice as loud as speaker one, but only at one frequency. Otherwise it may be the same or worse in the speech range.


According to those measurements speaker 2 will be slightly more than 50% louder than speaker one given the same input. But we don't know at what frequency or anything about directivity or a dozen other things that are more important than "how loud is it".


If your front fill speakers aren't loud enough. The installer should come back and fix the problem. You shouldn't start playing legos with all your new stuff.
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2020, 04:18:44 pm »

With both being 8 ohm impedance, and assuming the same input power, I think speaker 2 will be only marginally louder than speaker 1 below. #2 is physically larger, but I don't think that matters here. The higher SPL will make it louder, with a larger input signal, but they will be driven by the same amp and power level.

SPEAKER 1
Sensitivity: 90 dB2
Max SPL (calculated): 109 dB (115 dB Peak)
2Half space (on wall) averaged 100 Hz 10 kHz, 1 W.

SPEAKER 2
Axial sensitivity1: 91 dB (1 W/1 m)
Max. calculated SPL[SIZE="1"]1[/SIZE]: 120 dB
1Full-space measurement.

The background is we just had a new install at church and the front fill speakers aren't loud enough. We put the smaller ones at the front fill position and the larger ones for the balcony, but may want to reverse their locations. But only if speaker 2 will be louder by 3dB or more.

Who did the install?  Sounds like an issue they missed and need to fix, or if something changed they need to fix and send a bill.  At the very least, since they have all the speakers/amps/DSP info - what did they say? 

If they did a poor job - why were they hired?  Cheap? If they did a great job - why not let them sort it out? 

Who is going to re-align the system and update the DSP program? 

What are the exact speakers, amps, and DSP involved?

 Assuming the amp gain is set - a 1dB difference in sensitivity is meaningless, as frequency response likely has much more than a 1dB difference. 
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2020, 04:21:08 pm »

Who did the install?  Sounds like an issue they missed and need to fix, or if something changed they need to fix and send a bill.  At the very least, since they have all the speakers/amps/DSP info - what did they say? 

If they did a poor job - why were they hired?  Cheap? If they did a great job - why not let them sort it out? 

Who is going to re-align the system and update the DSP program? 

What are the exact speakers, amps, and DSP involved?

 Assuming the amp gain is set - a 1dB difference in sensitivity is meaningless, as frequency response likely has much more than a 1dB difference.


One speaker is measured in half space and the other is measured in whole space. Big difference there.
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Bruce Wallick

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2020, 04:27:21 pm »


One speaker is measured in half space and the other is measured in whole space. Big difference there.

Can you explain that please, Tim? I know it has something to with a wall mount, but more background is needed. Thanks in advance.
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Bruce Wallick

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2020, 04:38:09 pm »

Who did the install?  Sounds like an issue they missed and need to fix, or if something changed they need to fix and send a bill.  At the very least, since they have all the speakers/amps/DSP info - what did they say? 

If they did a poor job - why were they hired?  Cheap? If they did a great job - why not let them sort it out? 

Who is going to re-align the system and update the DSP program? 

What are the exact speakers, amps, and DSP involved?

 Assuming the amp gain is set - a 1dB difference in sensitivity is meaningless, as frequency response likely has much more than a 1dB difference.

Thanks for your great questions and suggestions. There's a political situation where the installer was paid early, the installation was delayed several times and we didn't get the A team. Also, the church member who managed the install never specified any speaker management (DSP) at all, and the system was never tuned. The installation was completed a few days before lockdown. Now there's no way we can go ask for more money, or even admit it needs more work. I'm just trying to solve a few small problems before we gather again. My next step will be to manually adjust the amp presets for the 3-box line array and front fill speakers in order to achieve the needed balance. The front fills just need to add a little energy on each side at the very front where the mains fall off. I'm considering moving the balcony speakers down and the front fills up to the balcony (swapping locations), especially since the line array covers the balcony pretty well now. But is it worth the effort, given the small improvement in sensitivity? And I do appreciate all the other factors which may come to bear on perceived loudness.
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Bruce Wallick

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2020, 06:29:10 pm »

Can you explain that please, Tim? I know it has something to with a wall mount, but more background is needed. Thanks in advance.

OK, I see now it's referring to the potential 6dB gain a speaker may experience when placed against a wall or floor, depending on the wall's material and construction.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2020, 06:46:04 pm »

OK, I see now it's referring to the potential 6dB gain a speaker may experience when placed against a wall or floor, depending on the wall's material and construction.

Yeah sorry I just got to work. Youth night tonight.


It sounds like ya'll really screwed the pooch on this one. It happens. Just take a deep breath and realize that you'll have to do it the right way now, and all that money you just "saved" is basically going to be flushed down the toilet.

Hire a pro. And better yet LISTEN to what he says.

There's only two ways to do a thing. Either do it right or do it again. Only you can decide when you'll do it right. And until then you are wasting tithe money which was given in good faith that the church would do things properly.


What is your general location? Most of the guys here are currently out of work and would probably love to come help consult on your project.

Also, tell us what you have. speakers, amps, console, etc.
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2020, 06:46:43 pm »


One speaker is measured in half space and the other is measured in whole space. Big difference there.

Correct, missed that. 

The second speaker verbiage seems Tannoy-esque.
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2020, 06:49:57 pm »


Also, tell us what you have. speakers, amps, console, etc.

This.

You literally can never give us enough information, and yes I'm serious. Feel free to include a plan of the venue.

Chris
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Re: Will this speaker be louder than that one?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2020, 06:49:57 pm »


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