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[Geri O'Neil]

Hi, all. I guess lighting in H.O.W.s is kind of a red-headed step-child around here, but I couldn't figure out where to ask this question. Please move if need be.

I've retired from the pro audio and lighting biz and am a full-time musician and bass player. I've also become a pretty good bass electronics guy. I install and replace the electronics and solve noise and hum issues in basses.

A friend of mine is a bassist at a mid-size church near here. They recently did a worship center upgrade and installed LED house lighting on the usual controller and a wall panel. I can find out more details on that part of it if I need to dig deeper.

The problem is, the bassist's basses are picking up the dreaded noise/buzz that goes away depending on what direction they are aimed. I think it's called EMF or electromagnetic interference. (There was a guitar player involved and he was having the same issues, but he's moved and hasn't been replaced, so I'm dealing with just a bassist). I had them go through the following trouble-shooting steps...

Turn down the basses' volume controls. The buzz goes away.

Disconnect the basses from the DI (going direct, no amps). Buzz goes away 100%. No buzz from the DI, the cable, or any associated pedals or FX.

Bass can be turned in 2 directions, 180* from each other. Bad buzz in two positions, no buzz in 2 positions.

This tells me that the basses are picking up stray interference. It's not bad cables, AC ground-related, polarity issues, etc. When the bass is removed from the equation, there is no buzz. Now, about the basses...

The basses are Lakland, Sadowsky, and Music Man. That probably won't mean anything to most here reading this. What's important is that these top-tier basses are built with the finest of guitar and bass shielding possible. Not only that, but all of these basses are equipped with humbucking pickups. These basses should be absolutely dead, dead quiet in nearly all situations. But no bass can be shielded from the top of the pickups and that's where the interference is coming into the basses

So we are this far along with the trouble-shooting. After I had them unplug the basses and determine that the basses were picking up the noise, I had them reconnect the bass, turn it up so the buzz was apparent and look at lighting. House lighting is all LED fixtures. Stage lighting is mostly LED and some movers, don't know what they are. Both systems are controlled by the same DMX lighting controller and a wall panel connected to control the house lighting. I had them turn on the breakers feeding all the stage lighting. No change. Then I had them arm themselves with flashlights ( ) and turn off the breakers to the house lighting. BINGO. They tell me that 100% of the buzz and noise from the bass was gone.

So here we are. I've diagnosed the noise down to the basses being affected by the house lighting system. But at this point, I don't know what to suggest they do. The bassist and the church's electrical engineer, who designed the electrical system, but not the lighting, has verified that the service is wired properly and operating correctly. I play at a big church with a fairly extensive stage lighting and LED fixture system, as well as projection, the whole big-church thing. I play a Mike Lull bass with 2 single-coil pickups, but the bass is built as well-shielded as they come. I have no noise issues whatsoever. Three years ago, I bought Fender's best bass at the time. It turned out to have woefully inadequate shielding and I had some problems with that bass, even with its humbucking pickups. I had to extensively shield a $2000 bass all over again. That's one reason I went to the Mike Lull basses.

Might there be some other solutions to look into? I hope my descriptions of things was adequate enough.

Thanx for reading along.

Geri O

[John Roberts {JR}]

Does the noise go away when lights are turned down/off?

Tell him to take off his aluminum foil hat, and try it as a shield around the bass pickup....

Perhaps an active pickup instrument.

Good luck...  Can I ASSume it didn't make noise before the LED lights?

JR

[Geri O'Neil]

Does the noise go away when lights are turned down/off?

Tell him to take off his aluminum foil hat, and try it as a shield around the bass pickup....

Perhaps an active pickup instrument.

Good luck...  Can I ASSume it didn't make noise before the LED lights?

JR

Wow. Just wow.


Nice to see snarky is still thick in the gene pool here. Never expected a response like this from you, JR. I’m sorry for whatever I did to invoke such.

Everything you asked is in the post. Don’t worry about it, though. I’d delete the topic if I could.

Geez....

[Erik Jerde]

Are the house lights dimmable?  If so does the level have any impact on the noise?

Just spitballing here, but if the lights are throwing off that much EMI then maybe the church can get them replaced as faulty?  It’s not like the bass is right next to them.  Someone here probably knows what regs are for equipment emitting RF like that.

What happens if you play through an amp?  Just as an experiment.  I’m betting it’s still noisy but if not then maybe that’s a path toward resolution. 

Maybe a RF scanner could “see” the interference and allow you to better characterize it.

I once had to have a vendor replace an entire video wall because the Motorola radios in use would cause the TVs to randomly go on and off.  That was real tricky to troubleshoot and then convince them that the TVs were at fault.

[Kevin Graf]

My first thought is that there is something tricky in the 'house light' AC circuit. It may have always been there and the old lighting system wasn't generating noise or they may have cut corners on the new install. Anyway, the How, Neutral & Safety Ground wires need to be in close proximity to each other all the way from the breaker panel to the dimmers to the luminaries (I mean lights).

[John Roberts {JR}]

Wow. Just wow.


Nice to see snarky is still thick in the gene pool here. Never expected a response like this from you, JR. I’m sorry for whatever I did to invoke such.

You didn't do anything but exercise an over active imagination.... excuuuuse me.

Everything you asked is in the post. Don’t worry about it, though. I’d delete the topic if I could.

Geez....

But you did not answer...

a)  does the noise go away when lights are turned down or off.... Yes or no?
b)  did you try crude shielding... Yes or no? These shields do not have to be hard grounded but can work when cap coupled to ground at least in lead guitars with higher Z pickups.
c)  have you tried an active pickup instrument (they should have lower output impedance). Yes or no?

I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for my weak attempt at humor....

JR

[Dave Garoutte]

Are the house light flourescents?
I have seen bad ballasts cause issues.

[Mike Caldwell]

LED lights can put out RF hash, the cheaper the light, the more RF.

One church I was doing some work at installed some dimmer modules
and there was some much RF hash that you could take one of their passive
monitors, unplug it from the system and still hear buzz coming from the horn.
It was easily heard a few feet from the horn in a quite room.
Picking the monitor and carrying it around you could find hotter spots than others.
In the right orientation the buzz would be gone as you moved it changing the position
of the crossover coils.
 

[Steven Cohen]

Geri,
Are the LED house lights retrofit or purpose build LED fixtures? If they are purpose built, do they contain their own dimming circuit?

 


 

Hi, all. I guess lighting in H.O.W.s is kind of a red-headed step-child around here, but I couldn't figure out where to ask this question. Please move if need be.

I've retired from the pro audio and lighting biz and am a full-time musician and bass player. I've also become a pretty good bass electronics guy. I install and replace the electronics and solve noise and hum issues in basses.

A friend of mine is a bassist at a mid-size church near here. They recently did a worship center upgrade and installed LED house lighting on the usual controller and a wall panel. I can find out more details on that part of it if I need to dig deeper.

The problem is, the bassist's basses are picking up the dreaded noise/buzz that goes away depending on what direction they are aimed. I think it's called EMF or electromagnetic interference. (There was a guitar player involved and he was having the same issues, but he's moved and hasn't been replaced, so I'm dealing with just a bassist). I had them go through the following trouble-shooting steps...

Turn down the basses' volume controls. The buzz goes away.

Disconnect the basses from the DI (going direct, no amps). Buzz goes away 100%. No buzz from the DI, the cable, or any associated pedals or FX.

Bass can be turned in 2 directions, 180* from each other. Bad buzz in two positions, no buzz in 2 positions.

This tells me that the basses are picking up stray interference. It's not bad cables, AC ground-related, polarity issues, etc. When the bass is removed from the equation, there is no buzz. Now, about the basses...

The basses are Lakland, Sadowsky, and Music Man. That probably won't mean anything to most here reading this. What's important is that these top-tier basses are built with the finest of guitar and bass shielding possible. Not only that, but all of these basses are equipped with humbucking pickups. These basses should be absolutely dead, dead quiet in nearly all situations. But no bass can be shielded from the top of the pickups and that's where the interference is coming into the basses

So we are this far along with the trouble-shooting. After I had them unplug the basses and determine that the basses were picking up the noise, I had them reconnect the bass, turn it up so the buzz was apparent and look at lighting. House lighting is all LED fixtures. Stage lighting is mostly LED and some movers, don't know what they are. Both systems are controlled by the same DMX lighting controller and a wall panel connected to control the house lighting. I had them turn on the breakers feeding all the stage lighting. No change. Then I had them arm themselves with flashlights ( ) and turn off the breakers to the house lighting. BINGO. They tell me that 100% of the buzz and noise from the bass was gone.

So here we are. I've diagnosed the noise down to the basses being affected by the house lighting system. But at this point, I don't know what to suggest they do. The bassist and the church's electrical engineer, who designed the electrical system, but not the lighting, has verified that the service is wired properly and operating correctly. I play at a big church with a fairly extensive stage lighting and LED fixture system, as well as projection, the whole big-church thing. I play a Mike Lull bass with 2 single-coil pickups, but the bass is built as well-shielded as they come. I have no noise issues whatsoever. Three years ago, I bought Fender's best bass at the time. It turned out to have woefully inadequate shielding and I had some problems with that bass, even with its humbucking pickups. I had to extensively shield a $2000 bass all over again. That's one reason I went to the Mike Lull basses.

Might there be some other solutions to look into? I hope my descriptions of things was adequate enough.

Thanx for reading along.

Geri O

[Geri O'Neil]

Geri,
Are the LED house lights retrofit or purpose build LED fixtures? If they are purpose built, do they contain their own dimming circuit?

 

Hi, Steven. I will try to find out. The friend that's having the issue is 85 miles. I'm trying to get him to have the contractor come back in to answer some questions and have a look at the nature of the fixtures they installed per the questions about the retrofit.

The following is in response to a couple of comments that I hadn't said whether the buzzing in the basses stopped when we turned off the lights. If you look in the OP, you'll find this statement in there...
"I had them reconnect the bass, turn it up so the buzz was apparent and look at lighting. House lighting is all LED fixtures. Stage lighting is mostly LED and some movers, don't know what they are. Both systems are controlled by the same DMX lighting controller and a wall panel connected to control the house lighting. I had them turn on the breakers feeding all the stage lighting. No change. Then I had them arm themselves with flashlights ( ) and turn off the breakers to the house lighting. BINGO. They tell me that 100% of the buzz and noise from the bass was gone. "


As well as the facts about the basses. (Repeating myself here) Top-flight brand basses, the best shielding practices in the business (I know, I've looked under the hood on these basses), 2 active basses, one passive. All basses have humbucking pickups.

Thanx, Steven. I'll try to find out some answers very soon.

[Henry Cohen]

LED lights can put out RF hash, the cheaper the light, the more RF.

"Ding, ding, ding; we have a winner!"

Cheap LED lighting fixtures are notorious for emitting significant RFI and even EMI, and field strength of the RFI/EMI increases geometrically with the number of sources (bulbs) in the space. Cheap LED bulbs, especially those designed as florescent tube replacements, have taken down 911 call centers, LMR dispatch centers and render M2M and IoT devices useless. The higher quality bulbs (yes, that means more expensive) are designed and manufactured such that spurious emissions are essentially non-existent. Cree is a very good brand as they also have an RF chip division so they know first hand the havoc LED lighting can cause. I believe Phillips is also good in this regards.

And finally, lest we forget that a wire in the air, including steel bass guitar strings, is also known as an antenna. Given the average length of a bass/guitar neck, those antennas, er, strings, are basically tuned for the VHF band; the very band in which cheap LED bulbs throw out the most hash. 

[Geri O'Neil]

"Ding, ding, ding; we have a winner!"

Cheap LED lighting fixtures are notorious for emitting significant RFI and even EMI, and field strength of the RFI/EMI increases geometrically with the number of sources (bulbs) in the space. Cheap LED bulbs, especially those designed as florescent tube replacements, have taken down 911 call centers, LMR dispatch centers and render M2M and IoT devices useless. The higher quality bulbs (yes, that means more expensive) are designed and manufactured such that spurious emissions are essentially non-existent. Cree is a very good brand as they also have an RF chip division so they know first hand the havoc LED lighting can cause. I believe Phillips is also good in this regards.

And finally, lest we forget that a wire in the air, including steel bass guitar strings, is also known as an antenna. Given the average length of a bass/guitar neck, those antennas, er, strings, are basically tuned for the VHF band; the very band in which cheap LED bulbs throw out the most hash.

Wow, Henry, thanks so much for the info. The info about the bass strings is spot dead on. As well as these basses are built and shielded, there's no shielding the pickups from the strings, they are kinda the point of being there, LOL. This is great to know. It's possible that I'll run into this again.

And now comes the part we all love about this business....Telling my bud and his church information that they won't like and don't want to hear.... Shields up!

[Art Welter]

And now comes the part we all love about this business....Telling my bud and his church information that they won't like and don't want to hear.... Shields up!

Geri,
Worth checking the light circuits individually, there may only certain zones that are putting out the "hash". Just one LED light not designed for dimming that was mistakenly installed in the house lighting system could do it.

Hope for the best!

Art

[Don T. Williams]

+1 for what Henry said.  Most of the name brand (Cree, Osram,) replacement lamps don't seem to have much problem, but I've experienced and had customers experience noise and RF problems from "ebay" or other less or unknown LED lamps.  I had one church that "upgraded" using LED's ordered on line and none of their wireless systems would work with the LED's on.  The dimmable versions can really be bad.  I'm sure you are aware that unfiltered or under-filtered SCR dimmers can produce a lot of noise even with incandescent lamps.  One other strange electrical problem I seen is bad MOV type surge protectors.  In a attempt to protect all the electronics, I've had churches plug every piece of electronics into MOV surge protectors or strips and then have issues with amps going into protect and wireless systems not working.  High quality installed whole building surge protection (like Lyntec) don't have this problem, but it is expensive insurance.  Finally, don't set a DI box on top of a Bass amp anywhere near the power transformer.  Some will hum loudly.

[Geri O'Neil]

Thanx, Don, Henry, Art, JR and others that have offered help and ideas.

I have some more pieces to the puzzle at my bud's church. Here's the LED replacement lamps they installed and apparently, the dimmers in use....

I've not heard of this brand of replacement LED lamp. Should they replace the lamps with known quality lamps first to see if the noise is reduced or eliminated before going further?

Thanx,
G

[John Roberts {JR}]

Thanx, Don, Henry, Art, JR and others that have offered help and ideas.

I have some more pieces to the puzzle at my bud's church. Here's the LED replacement lamps they installed and apparently, the dimmers in use....

I've not heard of this brand of replacement LED lamp. Should they replace the lamps with known quality lamps first to see if the noise is reduced or eliminated before going further?

Thanx,
G

A simple experiment is to listen to guitar interference while adjusting the suspect lamp dimmer... If it is the guilty party the noise will change with dimmer level.

JR

[Geri O'Neil]

A simple experiment is to listen to guitar interference while adjusting the suspect lamp dimmer... If it is the guilty party the noise will change with dimmer level.

JR

That was done over a week ago, with the bass on a stand at the bassist’s position and noise at full offensive with house lighting at 100% and zero noise with house lights at zero (controlled by the controller and dimming).

[John Roberts {JR}]

That was done over a week ago, with the bass on a stand at the bassist’s position and noise at full offensive with house lighting at 100% and zero noise with house lights at zero (controlled by the controller and dimming).

OK either lights or the controller.

Others here are more expert so I'll tap out now...

Good Luck

JR

[Steven Cohen]

As others have stated, the least problematic consumer LEDs are made by Cree and Philips. How many lamps total for the house light system? If under 10 or so and they are not too difficult to change, I would change them to Cree or Philips and see if the issue goes away.


 

Thanx, Don, Henry, Art, JR and others that have offered help and ideas.

I have some more pieces to the puzzle at my bud's church. Here's the LED replacement lamps they installed and apparently, the dimmers in use....

I've not heard of this brand of replacement LED lamp. Should they replace the lamps with known quality lamps first to see if the noise is reduced or eliminated before going further?

Thanx,
G

[Dave Garoutte]

Remove them one by one to see if is a specific one or all.

[Scott Hofmann]

Thanx, Don, Henry, Art, JR and others that have offered help and ideas.

I have some more pieces to the puzzle at my bud's church. Here's the LED replacement lamps they installed and apparently, the dimmers in use....

I've not heard of this brand of replacement LED lamp. Should they replace the lamps with known quality lamps first to see if the noise is reduced or eliminated before going further?

Thanx,
G

Since the houselights are on 9 circuits/dimmers, you could turn off all the circuits except the one closest to the stage and see if the interference is still present. If it is, you could start out by just replacing the LEDs on that circuit to see if it makes any improvement before replacing all the others.

[ProSoundWeb Community]