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Author Topic: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.  (Read 2242 times)

Henry Cohen

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2020, 10:02:16 pm »

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I'm not seeing anything in Part 95 Subparts A (General) or B (FRS) that would prohibit using FRS for this sort of thing? Subpart E (GMRS) does prohibit music, but the prohibitions in place for FRS seem very limited. Am I missing something?

It seems like this might be the only low-latency option for those who aren't Part 73 broadcasters (if you can figure out the logistical challenges, that is).

47CFR Part 95:
95.333(b)
95.357
95.359
95.377(a)

95.531
95.531(b)
95.533

But more importantly, these services simply can not provide the kind of audio quality required for anything approaching musicality (even if it was permitted).
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 10:07:07 pm by Henry Cohen »
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Henry Cohen

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Russell Ault

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2020, 02:00:32 am »

But more importantly, these services simply can not provide the kind of audio quality required for anything approaching musicality (even if it was permitted).

See, and here I was trying to figure out how to get enough physical separation between two blister-pack radios to get full-duplex going! :D

-Russ
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Mark Scrivener

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2020, 06:04:34 pm »

Some updates for folks attempting to use web conference tools for anything audio related as the lockdowns spread.....

1. The audio on all of these apps is optimized for voice and leaves much to be desired when sending music. However, I have found Zoom has advanced settings that enable you to turn off processing and send the original unprocessed audio. This helps somewhat, though I still encounter issues - even audio being time stretched due to bandwidth throttling.

2. I haven't found any of these apps that allow ASIO drivers, and none of them will allow anything other than ch1&2 of your interface....plan accordingly.

3. If you have a DSLR, Sparkocam will allow you to use it as a web cam via USB. HUGE improvement over even the best webcams. But sadly does nothing for the audio....

Russell Ault

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2020, 07:05:49 pm »

Some updates for folks attempting to use web conference tools for anything audio related as the lockdowns spread.....

1. The audio on all of these apps is optimized for voice and leaves much to be desired when sending music. However, I have found Zoom has advanced settings that enable you to turn off processing and send the original unprocessed audio. This helps somewhat, though I still encounter issues - even audio being time stretched due to bandwidth throttling.

2. I haven't found any of these apps that allow ASIO drivers, and none of them will allow anything other than ch1&2 of your interface....plan accordingly.

3. If you have a DSLR, Sparkocam will allow you to use it as a web cam via USB. HUGE improvement over even the best webcams. But sadly does nothing for the audio....

Someone on another forum posted a link to this software. I've never used it, but it seems like it might solve some of these issues: JamKazam.

Also, for what it's worth, my Internet connection might have been having an off-day when I ran my initial tests. My across-town ping right now is about 33 ms round-trip, which might make nearly-real-time music collaboration feasible (at least point-to-point).

-Russ
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Jay Marr

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2020, 08:55:20 am »

Someone on another forum posted a link to this software. I've never used it, but it seems like it might solve some of these issues: JamKazam.

Also, for what it's worth, my Internet connection might have been having an off-day when I ran my initial tests. My across-town ping right now is about 33 ms round-trip, which might make nearly-real-time music collaboration feasible (at least point-to-point).

-Russ

I've been using Jamkazam (and will have a rehearsal tonight, using it).
If you use just the audio, it works 'ok'.  If you use the video included, then latency increases.

Some best practices using the audio.
 - all members need to connect to jamkazam before a session and ensure they've gone though all the steps to minimize latency (give yourself 30 min to prep if it's your first time using)
 - have your drummer use (and include in their audio stream) a metronome.  Jamkazam has a built in metronome, but it does not work as well as the drummer providing it.  If you use Jamkazam's, then everyone is 'off' a little.  If the drummer includes it, then at least THEY are locked into the metronome (having both the metronome and the drummer, the two time keepers, be in sync, makes a world of difference.  That means that what I hear is - metronome and drums (and me playing along) are in time perfectly.  The other guitarist and bass player are a little behind the beat (which is like a normal 3rd set after 18 miller lites...kidding).
 - (should go without saying) Jamkazam should run on it's own machine, and it should be hard wired ethernet.
 - we also have a skype video call going (via our phones, so not using the same bandwidth) so that we can see each other.  This is more just for queues, and so we can talk if jamkazam is acting flakey (which it will)
 - in order to get the lowest latency (and have it sound acceptable), you will have some cracks and pops.  I have not found a way to avoid this.
 - we rehearse late (tonight will be 11pm start).  This seems to help with overall network speed, since the entire world is from home during normal biz hours
 - lastly, while being trapped in the house...it's better than nothing.
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frank kayser

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2020, 06:28:35 pm »

A note I got from JamKazam  FWIW.


Hello JamKazammers
[/size]A number of new users have asked if we are still here, and if the company and the service are still operational. The answer to all of these questions is yes.
[/size]To be clear, we are necessarily working on JamKazam part-time at this point. We are short on capital/cash. And we are very overwhelmed by the surge in the use of JamKazam, so we cannot provide 1:1 tech support. Please refer to this forum article for a help index of tutorial videos: https://forum.jamkazam.com/showthread.php?tid=69&pid=171#pid171. Sadly, we lost our more detailed help documentation when Desk.com went away, so please try to help each other as much as you can as a community in the forum.
[/size]Meanwhile, we are continuing to support and further develop JamKazam. Recently, we have fixed a number of video issues and other bugs that have cropped up in the service and have increased our server capacity to try to keep up with the surge in demand.
[/size]We are also working on a couple of larger enhancements:[/size]
    • Live Concert Broadcasts Weve built a new feature set that will enable bands to live broadcast group performances through YouTube Live and Facebook Live. Weve also integrated this feature with Eventbrite ticketing, so that bands can sell tickets to their fans/audience for these events if desired. This feature is getting close to release, and well announce this when ready. It is our hope that this feature can help bands generate income from performances while continuing to practice social distancing. If your band is playing together successfully on JamKazam, drop us an email at support@jamkazam.com if youd like to be an early adopter of this new concert broadcast service.
    • Internet Latency Reductions We are also working on something that has been on our drawing board for years now a networking service that will actually reduce the Internet latency between the musicians in a session. We have run tests that prove we can do this, and we are building the technology to do it now. We dont have the capital to deploy the servers and purchase the bandwidth to support this feature at this time, but we are hopeful that we can find a way to pull off the financial part of the puzzle somehow. The latency reductions that are possible are very significant and can make a tremendous difference in online sessions.
    • [/size]Wed like to thank everyone for your patience as we do our best to continue to support and improve JamKazam under adverse conditions. We have considered whether to ask for financial help from our users via a GoFundMe or other mechanism, as we are definitely short of cash in addition to time. We know its a bad time to ask for help, so honestly not sure what to do about this.
      [/size]Hope everyone is safe and well out there.
      [/size]Best Regards,
      Team JamKazam
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    Scott Holtzman

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    Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
    « Reply #16 on: April 24, 2020, 01:43:03 am »

    A note I got from JamKazam  FWIW.


    Hello JamKazammers
    A number of new users have asked if we are still here, and if the company and the service are still operational. The answer to all of these questions is yes.
    To be clear, we are necessarily working on JamKazam part-time at this point. We are short on capital/cash. And we are very overwhelmed by the surge in the use of JamKazam, so we cannot provide 1:1 tech support. Please refer to this forum article for a help index of tutorial videos: https://forum.jamkazam.com/showthread.php?tid=69&pid=171#pid171. Sadly, we lost our more detailed help documentation when Desk.com went away, so please try to help each other as much as you can as a community in the forum.
    Meanwhile, we are continuing to support and further develop JamKazam. Recently, we have fixed a number of video issues and other bugs that have cropped up in the service and have increased our server capacity to try to keep up with the surge in demand.
    We are also working on a couple of larger enhancements:
    • Live Concert Broadcasts Weve built a new feature set that will enable bands to live broadcast group performances through YouTube Live and Facebook Live. Weve also integrated this feature with Eventbrite ticketing, so that bands can sell tickets to their fans/audience for these events if desired. This feature is getting close to release, and well announce this when ready. It is our hope that this feature can help bands generate income from performances while continuing to practice social distancing. If your band is playing together successfully on JamKazam, drop us an email at support@jamkazam.com if youd like to be an early adopter of this new concert broadcast service.
    • Internet Latency Reductions We are also working on something that has been on our drawing board for years now a networking service that will actually reduce the Internet latency between the musicians in a session. We have run tests that prove we can do this, and we are building the technology to do it now. We dont have the capital to deploy the servers and purchase the bandwidth to support this feature at this time, but we are hopeful that we can find a way to pull off the financial part of the puzzle somehow. The latency reductions that are possible are very significant and can make a tremendous difference in online sessions.
    • Wed like to thank everyone for your patience as we do our best to continue to support and improve JamKazam under adverse conditions. We have considered whether to ask for financial help from our users via a GoFundMe or other mechanism, as we are definitely short of cash in addition to time. We know its a bad time to ask for help, so honestly not sure what to do about this.
      Hope everyone is safe and well out there.
      Best Regards,
      Team JamKazam


    How could they decrease latency on the network?  The speed of light and the NAP's they pass through have immutable delay. 



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    Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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    Russell Ault

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    Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
    « Reply #18 on: October 19, 2020, 05:17:09 pm »

    Someone in another audio community posted a link to a piece of FOSS developed at Stanford over a decade ago that might be worth investigating called JackTrip. As the name suggests it's based around the Jack audio connection system, so it's not going to be quite as plug-and-play as many are looking for, but the premise sounds interesting (and for anyone who nodded when I mentioned the Jack audio connection system, the previous stable version of jacktrip is available in the Debian repositories, and the current stable is already in testing). It sounds like a more end-user-oriented software package is in development, though.

    -Russ
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    Brian Jojade

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    Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
    « Reply #19 on: October 19, 2020, 06:29:43 pm »

    The trick for playing along live is to set one 'master' stream that gets viewed by the other musicians to play along with.  Then all of that needs to come together and then each stream delayed to match whichever has the longest latency and then re-broadcast. 

    Not super challenging if you've got the right equipment to do it.  The biggest challenge is making sure that the latency of the stream doesn't drift over time.  Often times, setting an oversized buffer of several seconds is used to make sure that there are no interruptions.

    But being able to have a 2 way live stream with no latency available doesn't exist.  Even a simple standard phone call between 2 people has more latency than would make that workable.  Everything going through the phone lines today is converted to a digital signal.  Latency is kept low enough for basic communication to work, but it's nowhere near as low as it was back in the good old days of pure analog.  Of course, noise and interference are less with digital, but latency will never be better.
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    Brian Jojade

    ProSoundWeb Community

    Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
    « Reply #19 on: October 19, 2020, 06:29:43 pm »


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