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Author Topic: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.  (Read 2241 times)

Mark Scrivener

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Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« on: March 17, 2020, 03:44:08 pm »

Hello Everyone,

I'm here in the SF Bay area on mandatory lock down, teaching guitar students via Zoom, Skype, working on studio projects and trying to figure out what else I can do. One of the issues with video chat apps is latency - it really isn't possible to "play along" with a student (or fellow musician) this way. Not only is that a limitation for teaching, it also presents challenges for "virtual concerts" since out here we can't even (legally) get together in a living room to stream the band. Are there any reasonably affordable solutions to the latency issue anyone can recommend?

And while we are on the subject of streaming....I just stumbled across the Roland VR-1HD, which seems like a nice little solution for controlling a few cameras plus an audio feed to your streaming app. But it seems mostly targeted at gamers.  Any other simple solutions out there for taking a few cameras plus a console feed and sending it over USB?

Russell Ault

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2020, 05:48:00 pm »

Hello Everyone,

I'm here in the SF Bay area on mandatory lock down, teaching guitar students via Zoom, Skype, working on studio projects and trying to figure out what else I can do. One of the issues with video chat apps is latency - it really isn't possible to "play along" with a student (or fellow musician) this way. Not only is that a limitation for teaching, it also presents challenges for "virtual concerts" since out here we can't even (legally) get together in a living room to stream the band. Are there any reasonably affordable solutions to the latency issue anyone can recommend?

As a quick experiment, I just pinged my parent's place across town. Average round-trip time was ~150ms, which to me says that there's no way to get Internet latency even close to the point where you could really collaborate effectively, at least on normal home connections.

FttH might be better. ISDN should get you close. POTS should have almost no latency, but quality will be mediocre (and who still has a real landline any more, anyway?). The new 5G wireless is supposed to be excellent for latency.

-Russ
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2020, 09:42:37 pm »

As a quick experiment, I just pinged my parent's place across town. Average round-trip time was ~150ms, which to me says that there's no way to get Internet latency even close to the point where you could really collaborate effectively, at least on normal home connections.

FttH might be better. ISDN should get you close. POTS should have almost no latency, but quality will be mediocre (and who still has a real landline any more, anyway?). The new 5G wireless is supposed to be excellent for latency.

-Russ


These days POTS lines are actually VoIP behind the scenes and ISDN is also encapsulated onto packet switched networks.  I remember when we used ISDN BRI for radio remotes.  Actually finding two ISDN BRI's and making a switched data call in 2020, I think that technology has long left the barn.


5G is supposed to be very low latency, actually good enough for cloud distributed AI to support autonomous vehicles.  I can't wait to test when it comes to my market.



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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Russell Ault

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2020, 11:06:13 pm »

These days POTS lines are actually VoIP behind the scenes and ISDN is also encapsulated onto packet switched networks.

That's a little disappointing.

I remember when we used ISDN BRI for radio remotes.  Actually finding two ISDN BRI's and making a switched data call in 2020, I think that technology has long left the barn.

I want to say there's at least one studio in town that still has an ISDN line for doing remote voiceover/-acting work, but I could be wrong about that.

Are you allowed to put music over LMR (I known it's not allowed in the amateur service)? There has to still be some way to get audio from A to B in less than 10ms or so, right?

-Russ
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2020, 02:49:23 am »

That's a little disappointing.

I want to say there's at least one studio in town that still has an ISDN line for doing remote voiceover/-acting work, but I could be wrong about that.

Are you allowed to put music over LMR (I known it's not allowed in the amateur service)? There has to still be some way to get audio from A to B in less than 10ms or so, right?

-Russ


It would not be LMR, it's BAS Broadcast Auxiliary Service frequencies.  Certainly still used for ENG and STL applications.  2Ghz and all are digital now.


A lot of ENG work is done over 4g data now, it's not latency sensitive.  I am sure we have all scene local news packages full of audio anomolies and video artifacts.
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Russell Ault

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2020, 02:35:25 pm »

It would not be LMR, it's BAS Broadcast Auxiliary Service frequencies.  Certainly still used for ENG and STL applications.  2Ghz and all are digital now.

Right, but most people can't get a license to operate in BAS spectrum. I was wondering if there might be something more generally accessible out there that would fill this requirement, which is why LMR came to mind.

Come to that, I suppose 2W FRS might also do the trick, at least over short distances.

-Russ
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Ned Ward

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2020, 04:57:48 pm »

For teaching, switch to asynchronous learning - play a part, have them play it back, and then comment. works fine regardless of each other's connections.

as for live events, unfortunately that won't work. Good time to brush up on recording techniques, etc. Luckily my daughter plays piano and bass, and my older daughter sings, so we're making the best of it.
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Mark Scrivener

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2020, 01:43:52 am »

For teaching, switch to asynchronous learning - play a part, have them play it back, and then comment. works fine regardless of each other's connections.

as for live events, unfortunately that won't work. Good time to brush up on recording techniques, etc. Luckily my daughter plays piano and bass, and my older daughter sings, so we're making the best of it.

Yeah, I'm making teaching work, no problem...not ideal but workable. Actually a bigger problem is with beginner students trying to see what they are doing wrong due to poor camera setup on their end. But that's a different issue. Working with advanced students has always been much easier - esp remote.

I was really hoping to find some way to create virtual live events as most of us don't live with our band. My expectation is this situation will last much longer than anyone thinks. I'm fortunate to live in a very well equipped recording studio and can do anything I want studio wise, and of course I can always get others to email wave files for collaboration. Thanks to everyone who chimed in - wanted to make sure there wasn't some solution that I was overlooking.

Henry Cohen

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2020, 12:06:44 pm »

Right, but most people can't get a license to operate in BAS spectrum. I was wondering if there might be something more generally accessible out there that would fill this requirement, which is why LMR came to mind.

Come to that, I suppose 2W FRS might also do the trick, at least over short distances.

LMR is completely inappropriate for backhauling in this application:
- Parts 90 (commercial radio service) and 95 (personal radio services such as FRS and GMRS) rules forbid constant broadcast and the broadcast of music or other program material. It's for short duration voice communications only.
- Standard LMR, whether Part 90, 95 or 74, has only about 3kHz audio bandwidth for analog FM, less for the digital formats (and the CODECs can't support complex audio signals such as music).
- Part 74 LMR licenses are generally available only to Part 73 broadcasters and those entities supporting Part 73 broadcast operations.
- Wideband licenses in 450/455 BAS bands are no longer available without a waiver.

Broadcast quality STL links in the 944-952 MHz band would provide the necessary audio quality, but again licenses only available to Part 73 broadcasters.
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Henry Cohen

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Russell Ault

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Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2020, 07:22:09 pm »

[...] 95 (personal radio services such as FRS and GMRS) rules forbid constant broadcast and the broadcast of music or other program material. It's for short duration voice communications only.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I'm not seeing anything in Part 95 Subparts A (General) or B (FRS) that would prohibit using FRS for this sort of thing? Subpart E (GMRS) does prohibit music, but the prohibitions in place for FRS seem very limited. Am I missing something?

It seems like this might be the only low-latency option for those who aren't Part 73 broadcasters (if you can figure out the logistical challenges, that is).

-Russ
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Low latency streaming? Camera switching, etc.
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2020, 07:22:09 pm »


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