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[Richard Penrose]

Hi,

I heard a quick demo of the FBT VN2000 in a showroom today and have to say this tiny system really exceeded my expectations!
At the moment I’ve been just using a single pair of Yamaha DXR15’s which have been working out surprisingly well but I no longer want to be lifting speakers weighing nearly 23kg onto stands anymore.
I would like something that can at least match the output the DXR15’s but preferably go a fraction louder with greater depth of bass. I also want something much lighter to be lifting onto stands.
From what I briefly heard from the VN2000 today I would expect this system to tick all those boxes. However, I’ve also heard good things about the RCF HD10a/702ASII system and am pretty torn between the two. Unfortunately I’m not going to be able to do a side by side comparison of both systems so am pretty torn with what to do?
I can get an ex-demo VN2000 system for around £2400 or which is over £800 off new price. Or I can get the RCF HD10a/702asII system brand new for £2200.

I plan on using this system for live music to tun 4-5 vocals, keys, bass, guitar and a small amount of miked drums.

What are your thoughts/recommendations on the FBT VN2000 and the RCF HD10’a + 702asII?

[Heath Eldridge]

You won’t regret the RCF system. Can’t tell you anything about the FBT.

[Richard Penrose]

Thanks. I’ve spoken to a couple of people who own both and they’ve said the FBT VN2000 has a little more clarity and output. Also the RCF 702ASII sub has higher port noise than the FBT Subline 112a?

[Sean Zurbrick]

I own a pair of those subs and run them over RCF 310A's for the occasional small show. The setup does fine, but there is a significant consideration that may decide it for you. The RCF subs are so small and light that they do not make a very stable base for speakers of any significant size. I barely feel comfortable using the 310A's with my poles at the lowest pole setting, which isn't tall enough.

FBT subs are 7-8 lbs heavier and 3" wider at 17" vs the 14" width of the RCF. This makes the base more stable. I also noticed the voice coil of the FBT is 3" vs the 2.5" of the RCF. The FBT also has a higher published peak SPL by 4 dB.

As much as possible I center cluster my RCF 702AS-II subs. The good thing about being small is they can cluster easily, even when put on the floor on a non-raised performance area. When on their side, they are barely taller than the monitors. Which ever you go with, I'd center them as much as possible as it really does help the output and keeps the SPL more consistent throughout most venues than pole mounting.

[Richard Penrose]

I’ve been speaking to a few more people who have used both the FBT and RCF systems and they preferred the FBT VN2000. Similar experiences where they find the FBT has a little more output and vocal clarity.

[Richard Penrose]

I own a pair of those subs and run them over RCF 310A's for the occasional small show. The setup does fine, but there is a significant consideration that may decide it for you. The RCF subs are so small and light that they do not make a very stable base for speakers of any significant size. I barely feel comfortable using the 310A's with my poles at the lowest pole setting, which isn't tall enough.

FBT subs are 7-8 lbs heavier and 3" wider at 17" vs the 14" width of the RCF. This makes the base more stable. I also noticed the voice coil of the FBT is 3" vs the 2.5" of the RCF. The FBT also has a higher published peak SPL by 4 dB.

As much as possible I center cluster my RCF 702AS-II subs. The good thing about being small is they can cluster easily, even when put on the floor on a non-raised performance area. When on their side, they are barely taller than the monitors. Which ever you go with, I'd center them as much as possible as it really does help the output and keeps the SPL more consistent throughout most venues than pole mounting.

This is a very good point. Those RCF subs do look quite thin and tall and very light. I think I would be quite nervous using those as the HD10a tops are as wide as the subs and could topple over if someone bumped into them!? I’ve added a photos below to show this. The FBT system does look more stable.

Has anyone else on here had any experience with these systems? I’m particularly keen to hear from anyone who has used the FBT VN2000 for live music?

[Lev Raber]

Has anyone else on here had any experience with these systems? I’m particularly keen to hear from anyone who has used VNT VN2000 for live music?
[/quote]

I'm a long time RCF and FBT user, probably since the first time FBT appeared on US market.  I still think Maxx4a cabinet is the best sounding 12"+1" speaker I used to have in my inventory. Very good B&C drivers with excellent amps inside.
Same standard goes for everything else FBT produced later on.

Regarding VN2000, I had a chance to listen to the system (it's Ventis 206A top with 112SA sub) and to my taste it was a bit "lightweight". Probably good enough for not aggressive DJ material or acoustic trio.
On other hand, Vertus CLA 206a over 118SA sub was a areal winner with overall better power and SPL. A bit larger than VN2000 system, but Vertus Line is a beast in very low profile format. Of course, it's not cheap.

I'm not sure what kind of material you plan to use it for, but if it is a basic band with drums, gtrs, keys and vocals, VN2000 won't be sufficient.
Plan ahead for future use requiring more power with more coverage for more people. I always do. 

[Richard Penrose]

Has anyone else on here had any experience with these systems? I’m particularly keen to hear from anyone who has used VNT VN2000 for live music?


I'm a long time RCF and FBT user, probably since the first time FBT appeared on US market.  I still think Maxx4a cabinet is the best sounding 12"+1" speaker I used to have in my inventory. Very good B&C drivers with excellent amps inside.
Same standard goes for everything else FBT produced later on.

Regarding VN2000, I had a chance to listen to the system (it's Ventis 206A top with 112SA sub) and to my taste it was a bit "lightweight". Probably good enough for not aggressive DJ material or acoustic trio.
On other hand, Vertus CLA 206a over 118SA sub was a areal winner with overall better power and SPL. A bit larger than VN2000 system, but Vertus Line is a beast in very low profile format. Of course, it's not cheap.

I'm not sure what kind of material you plan to use it for, but if it is a basic band with drums, gtrs, keys and vocals, VN2000 won't be sufficient.
Plan ahead for future use requiring more power with more coverage for more people. I always do.

Thanks. I’ve been using a single pair of DXR15’s for this. I’m surprised to hear the VN2000 won’t be sufficient compared to the DXR15’s?
I already own a pair of QSC KW181 subs but haven’t used them for almost a year and a half as Im scaling down the jobs I’m doing and I’m not intending to lug around 18” subs anymore.
Most of the time I’m just running vocals, bass, keys and kick drum through the system. There are a couple of occasions where I may run a fully miked kit as a bit of reinforcement an not to have a massive pumping drum sound for large crowds.

[Scott Holtzman]

Thanks. I’ve been using a single pair of DXR15’s for this. I’m surprised to hear the VN2000 won’t be sufficient compared to the DXR15’s?
I already own a pair of QSC KW181 subs but haven’t used them for almost a year and a half as Im scaling down the jobs I’m doing and I’m not intending to lug around 18” subs anymore.
Most of the time I’m just running vocals, bass, keys and kick drum through the system. There are a couple of occasions where I may run a fully miked kit as a bit of reinforcement an not to have a massive pumping drum sound for large crowds.

Where are you Richard?   We are in CLE and can get you a demo of any of the FBT stuff.  Very familiar with the CLA, and it is sounds great at a price point similar to the DZR's.  The VN2000's I have not heard. 

[Richard Penrose]

Where are you Richard?   We are in CLE and can get you a demo of any of the FBT stuff.  Very familiar with the CLA, and it is sounds great at a price point similar to the DZR's.  The VN2000's I have not heard.

Hi Scott,

I'm in the UK. Thanks for the offer though!

[Lev Raber]

Hey Richard,
I feel your pain and wish people still pay for your (and mine) services without lifting speakers.
At some point in my life I also started to scale down the jobs. But for what you described (4-5 vocals, keys, bass, guitar and a small amount of miked drums) it is impossible to properly reinforce your band with VN2000 system, if you run everything through it (without any backline at least).
It's always a limit to how much you can afford to "scale down" your sound system.
At some point your client won't see it, then won't hear it and, as a result, won't pay for it.
Just a thought.

[Richard Penrose]

Hey Richard,
I feel your pain and wish people still pay for your (and mine) services without lifting speakers.
At some point in my life I also started to scale down the jobs. But for what you described (4-5 vocals, keys, bass, guitar and a small amount of miked drums) it is impossible to properly reinforce your band with VN2000 system, if you run everything through it (without any backline at least).
It's always a limit to how much you can afford to "scale down" your sound system.
At some point your client won't see it, then won't hear it and, as a result, won't pay for it.
Just a thought.

Hi Lev. Thanks for the reply. Have you heard the Yamaha DXR15’s next to the VN2000 system? I guess I’m very surprised to hear a single pair of Yamaha DXR15’s will outperform the FBT VN2000?

[Lev Raber]

Hi Lev. Thanks for the reply. Have you heard the Yamaha DXR15’s next to the VN2000 system? I guess I’m very surprised to hear a single pair of Yamaha DXR15’s will outperform the FBT VN2000?

No, I never had a chance to hear DXR15 and VN2000 side by side. But even if I did, it wouldn't be a fair comparison, because of completely different design of speakers.   

If you simply want to save your back, here is an idea for you:
DXR15 - 48lb
VN2000 - 78lb total (27lb top plus 51lb sub)

DXR15 on stick will outperform Ventus 206a, because it has better SPL and coverage (forget about small reflex 112SA sub, it will be little help in crowded room with people standing close to your system).
I'm not a fan of 15" tops in general, but that's what you have, right?

Now, tell me what can you live with in regard of weight of the tops? Because it feels like we go in circles.
 
I always prefer system design with small, reasonably powerful top and sub against single top. Ventus 206a by itself is too weak to compete with DXR15, especially in full range. It's much better with sub, but by my account still not sufficient for what you try to achieve. 

I myself use RCF N24a tops over different subs (depends on the music material) in rooms with 100 to up to 250 people.
I used in the past dual FBT CLA 206a tops per side with subs for wide coverage and it was sufficient for wedding band in rooms with up to 400 people.
When I invested in my tops the weight against power and quality was a big consideration. Technology is changing all the time and good sounding and relatively light speakers are more and more available.

Here is a good and a bad news: when you decide to quit your business you won't have to lift your speakers anymore, you'll have more time attending to your garden, but still have to lift 2-gallon watering can!

[Richard Penrose]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Whilst the Yamaha DXR15 specs say max spl 133db vs the FBT Ventis 206a 131db on paper, from my experience real world performance can be very different. For example, a while back I got to use a KV2 EX system running a pair of EX6 single 6” tops and a single EX1.2 12” sub and this system way outperformed the DXR15’s in every respect! The specs for the KV2 EX6 tops say maximum peak SPL 120db. Also, the EX1.2 sub says a maximum SPL of 127db. However, this system goes much louder than a pair of DXR15’s!
I realise that the KV2 system is more high end but still it shows that you need to take published specs with a pinch of salt and actually judge them by hearing the systems.

I’ve found FBT and RCF’s specs tend to be a little more modest compared to many other manufacturers at this level. I’ve had both FBT, RCF and speakers from other manufacturers (EV, JBL, Yamaha) and whilst on paper the specs look lower than the other companies, they were louder and went deeper in real world performance.

Regarding the weight of the FBT VN2000, the subs are the heaviest part but still only weigh the same as the DXR15’s. If I went with these, I would add castors to these so I really wouldn’t have to carry them at all. This means I would only be carrying the Ventis 206a tops which are almost half the weight of the DXR15’s which will make a big difference to me.

Saying all that, I haven’t been able to compare the FBT VN2000 to the DXR15’s myself due to many reasons (including covid19) so I have no idea how they will perform. I have heard a single FBT VN2000 briefly and was very impressed with the sound, output and depth of bass. It totally exceeded my expectations for a system of this size/price!

[Richard Penrose]

Well it’s been almost a year since my last post and I’ve not changed my system yet. Over the past year I have needed my Yamaha DXR15’s and QSC KW181’s for socially distanced outdoor events. As a result with the current conditions I’m a little reluctant to sell this system as I can see myself needing this for future events.
Ideally, I would love an active system that can at least match the output and depth of bass as my DXR15/KW181 system but in a smaller and lighter package. Any recommendations?

[Heath Eldridge]

Well it’s been almost a year since my last post and I’ve not changed my system yet. Over the past year I have needed my Yamaha DXR15’s and QSC KW181’s for socially distanced outdoor events. As a result with the current conditions I’m a little reluctant to sell this system as I can see myself needing this for future events.
Ideally, I would love an active system that can at least match the output and depth of bass as my DXR15/KW181 system but in a smaller and lighter package. Any recommendations?

I just stumbled across this by google. I feel like I’ve seen you asking about this recently.

Personally I have 4 of the RCF sub 705as - most gigs I use 2 but if I need a bit extra I use 4. 4 of those would outrun your QSCs

For FOH I own RCF TT22a mk2. Got them on a killer deal but the HD32a are light and great speakers.

I also own 6 x art 310a which are meant to be my monitors. For a lot of gigs I use 2 of the 310 over the 705s and it is absolutely fine. Gives me a few options for different weight and volume points.

[Steve Crump]

Well it’s been almost a year since my last post and I’ve not changed my system yet. Over the past year I have needed my Yamaha DXR15’s and QSC KW181’s for socially distanced outdoor events. As a result with the current conditions I’m a little reluctant to sell this system as I can see myself needing this for future events.
Ideally, I would love an active system that can at least match the output and depth of bass as my DXR15/KW181 system but in a smaller and lighter package. Any recommendations?

Tape up to the wall all the manufacturers that produce MI gear and throw a dart at the wall. Based on your gear list, considering what type of performances a rig like your rig would be used for, I think with the right person running the sound, so many manufacturers make something that will work. I have heard many guys do impressive things with today's MI gear for small community type events. I say impressive because they are using some pretty affordable MI grade gear.   

If it were me and I was going active, I would look at the JTR Captivator 212 and the DB Tech IG3T combo. I own passive C212s, but have never heard the DB Tech, but have read enough that I would take a chance on it. But not really sure if the active JTR would be cost effective for you being in Europe.

Have you considered owning two rigs? Not sure about pricing in Europe, but if I wanted an affordable small rig I think I would look at the DB Tech IG2T and the RCF705 sub combo? Edit


I did own a couple of the RCF HD10s and really for the utility type use I didn't think they was a big enough improvement over the Yamaha DBR. I was using them for small acoustic duos as monitors and also for keyboard monitors.
I sold them and kept the Yamahas, mainly because of some features on the Yamaha amps that come in handy.

PS: I think light-weight sub might be an oxymoron.

[Steve Crump]

Woops

[Richard Penrose]

Tape up to the wall all the manufacturers that produce MI gear and throw a dart at the wall. Based on your gear list, considering what type of performances a rig like your rig would be used for, I think with the right person running the sound, so many manufacturers make something that will work. I have heard many guys do impressive things with today's MI gear for small community type events. I say impressive because they are using some pretty affordable MI grade gear.   

If it were me and I was going active, I would look at the JTR Captivator 212 and the DB Tech IG3T combo. I own passive C212s, but have never heard the DB Tech, but have read enough that I would take a chance on it. But not really sure if the active JTR would be cost effective for you being in Europe.

Have you considered owning two rigs? Not sure about pricing in Europe, but if I wanted an affordable small rig I think I would look at the DB Tech IG2T and the RCF705 sub combo? Edit


I did own a couple of the RCF HD10s and really for the utility type use I didn't think they was a big enough improvement over the Yamaha DBR. I was using them for small acoustic duos as monitors and also for keyboard monitors.
I sold them and kept the Yamahas, mainly because of some features on the Yamaha amps that come in handy.

PS: I think light-weight sub might be an oxymoron.

Thanks Steve. Yes I have considered owning two rigs. I have a three Alto TS210's and I tried out their TS312 sub to use as a mini system. However, the sub really wasn't great. It was pretty loud but it sounded very boomy and there was a lot of port buzzy as soon as you put bass through them.
I have quite a wide variety of gigs I play/run sound at. They vary from an acoustic duo's in very small venues (40-50 people) to fully miked band's at outdoor events (300-400 people). At the moment I'm using a pair of Alto TS210's for the small acoustic duo/trio gig's and these are working quite well for this. They also handle a small amount of bass being run through them. For the larger gigs I'm either using just a pair of DXR15's or I add the QSC KW181's for the biggest events and use the Alto's as monitors. I also have a pair of FBT X-Lite 12a's which I use as monitors for drummers/bass players though the Alto's have generally handled this fine.
My most used speakers I have are the Alto TS210's followed by the Yamaha DXR15's which cover around 90% of my work at the moment. The QSC KW181's only get used occasionally and the FBT X-Lites even less (maybe twice a year). As a result I'm looking to upgrade the Alto's. I've been enquiring around and have consistently been advised to try the new FBT X-Pro 110a and Yamaha DXR10mk2. I've tried the RCF710's and Yamaha DBR10's in the past and liked the RCF 710 a lot apart from the much higher noise floor than any active speaker I've tried. I wasn't keen on the DBR10.

One thing I've found with the FBT X-Lite 12a's that I own is they go seriously loud despite the max spl in the specs being lower than some other speakers I've tried. In fact, I've had speakers here where the specs say max spl 131db and the FBT's were much louder. I'm hoping to try the FBT X-Pro 110a's at some point in the near future but am going to hang on for a few weeks with the NAMM Believe In Music event coming up in a couple of weeks.

In an ideal world, I'd love a small light system with a pair of 10" tops and 12" subs that could replace my DXR15/QSCKW181 system and handle my bigger gigs. However, realistically I don't think I'll find this with my budget. If I can find a decent pair of lightweight 10"s (under 15kg) that have enough spl for outdoor events I could potentially get a pair of 12" subs for now and add another pair at a later date!?

[Steve Crump]

Richard,

Let us know what you decide. I looked back over the post and searched for info on the FBT VN2000, looks interesting.

I purchased a couple of the RCF Evox 8 systems 4 or 5 years ago to have a small compact system and I have used it a good bit over the years, I have run full bands through it more than once. Would it be my first choice for 300 people in the street with a rock band, no. But, a four or five pc at a small outdoor gathering of friends with 100 or people it will do fine. I will say it worked well at a 4000sq ft brewery indoors with a Blues Trio, the room was crazy reverberate and didn't really need crazy low end. I have also used it more than once at a small theatre 150 capacity with full bands doing country with good results. It's definitely not my favorite system but it can work for certain situations. I will admit, knowing what I know now I would not have purchased the Evox. I would have purchased a more utility type 10" and a separate sub.

I have a friend with a 6pc cover band that uses the Bose sticks for everything indoor and outdoor, he loves them. 

[Richard Penrose]

Yes I'm thinking 10" over sub instead of the stick type systems. There are times when I would like to use just the 10"s by themselves.

[Derek Tallent]

Yes I'm thinking 10" over sub instead of the stick type systems. There are times when I would like to use just the 10"s by themselves.

Where in the UK are you Richard? We have the FBT X-Lites in hire stock and pair them with the 18" sub for the jobs we do that need this sort of kit. We're in Telford, so if you're not too far away and would like to come for a listen.

Alternatively it would be worth talking to Mark Parkhouse at FBT Audio UK to find out where your nearest dealer is.

[Richard Penrose]

Where in the UK are you Richard? We have the FBT X-Lites in hire stock and pair them with the 18" sub for the jobs we do that need this sort of kit. We're in Telford, so if you're not too far away and would like to come for a listen.

Alternatively it would be worth talking to Mark Parkhouse at FBT Audio UK to find out where your nearest dealer is.

Hi Derek. I’m based right at the bottom of Cornwall. I have a pair of the original X-Lite 12a’s which are good speakers but I’d like something smaller and lighter ideally. I’ve been told the new X-Pro V2 is an improvement. A lot of the gigs I’m doing are acoustic duo/trio type gigs where I’d be running vocals, piano and bass through the speakers. The Alto TS210’s have been handling this fine. For the larger gigs I use a pair of Yamaha DXR15’s which have been great! They handle a full band extremely well and I’ve even done outdoor events with 320+ people with a fully miked band and was blown away at how well they handled this! For the biggest gigs I add a pair of QSC KW181’s but these are rare these days. In fact, the only time I used them over the past three years was for a few drive in events due to covid. However, these events don’t appear to be happening now.

I’ve tried the Alto TS312 subs with the TS210 tops and to be honest, I much preferred the sound of the Yamaha DXR15’s.

I’m going to hang on for a while as the NAMM Believe In Music, Pro Sound And Light are happening soon. There is often new product releases at these events so I’m going to see if anything gets released then.

[ProSoundWeb Community]