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Author Topic: Aiming Movers  (Read 1214 times)

Don T. Williams

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2020, 11:29:17 pm »

Dave, I am a QuickQ 30 owner and user with about a dozen show on it.  I also have a Road Hog 4 and Hedgehog 4.  The QuickQ is faster and easier to learn than the Hog and is a very nice console for club level shows in my opinion.  I too like the number of faders (handles) available.  It runs a slightly lighter software than MagicQ.  My understanding is that you can load QuickQ show files onto a MagicQ console and it will run the file 100%.  There are a few things the MagicQ console will do that a QuickQ will not, so not everything programed in MagicQ will translate to the QuickQ console.  I'm told about 95% will.  The MagicViz visualizer and QuickQ Designer are free software downloads.  The QuickQ may not be the "X32" of lighting console, but its close.  The tech support has been outstanding.  Had the new MQ70 been available when I bought my Hogs I might have gone that way.
     
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Matt Greiner

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2020, 12:27:26 am »

So I have just started using my cheap chinese movers in an arts center I support for band/concert shows (I'm a colorblind sound guy so set expectations there...).   These are not plays.

I'm finding that my 6 movers need to be re-aimed for every act that plays, obviously because the players are all in different positions each time.   Kind of tedious.  I expect it would take much longer if I had 10 or 20.   And how in the world to large shows with scores of movers get the aim set up quickly?   I might buy more but I hate the programming to re-aim every time.

FYI I use luminaire 3.   So I just go edit every.single.light.in.every.single.scene......   Is there a faster way I'm missing?

--Kevin

Did a quick scan, and I don't believe anyone mentioned Elation Onyx.  It used to be Martin MPC.  While it definitely doesn't have the rider/rental acceptance as GrandMA, Hog or ETC, it does have a lot of features for what it costs.  It's definitely not anything to stick your nose up to.  A fair amount of NHL/NBA arenas use the Onyx software, with their higher end desks (M1, M6).  They have dongles for under $300, and the NX-Touch should be under $500 if you call around.  The Touch gives you virtual faders, as well as many assignable soft touch buttons, as well as 1 universe of DMX output.

It does have the presets that you can update, similar to the palettes that have been mentioned.  It also has a pretty good FX engine. The software is free to download and play around with.  It's not for everyone, and depending on your needs, it may not be for you.  But as mentioned, for the price point, you'd be hard pressed to get a better "bang for your buck".  There is a Facebook group that has a wealth of knowledge, and people willing to help, just like on here.  Some of Elation's primary software developmental staff members are regular contributors and help answer questions on there as well.

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Dave Batistig

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2020, 09:49:22 am »

Hi Dave, you might want to try asking this question over at Control Booth - I know several folks there have used them on actual productions and not just the demo floor.  I agree with Tim though that the QuickQ is a generally safe purchase.  As with any product it's important to understand the limitations and where the unit sits on the larger food chain, but I don't think you can really go wrong with it per say - just read the manual and play with the MagicQ PC demo for a bit so that you know exactly what you're getting before making the investment.  Good luck!

Thanks everyone for the info on the QuickQ! I read a post yesterday where someone said, and I paraphrase, that the Lighting world doesn't have its X32/M32 product yet....perhaps the QuickQ line is it. I really love my Titan Mobile with wing. The learning curve on the Titan software is a bit steep, but it is VERY powerful, however, outside of TitanOne, the cost of entry is steep. The Quartz product is a GREAT compact platform, but it is approx. $9500.00 average street price for a 12" touchscreen and 10 playback faders.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 10:07:58 am by Dave Batistig »
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2020, 11:08:48 pm »

I read a post yesterday where someone said, and I paraphrase, that the Lighting world doesn't have its X32/M32 product yet....perhaps the QuickQ line is it.

Hi Dave, it was probably me that you are referring to - and at least I can say that I've made that comment many times if I'm not the specific one you're thinking of. 

The X32 is definitely an interesting product to consider when looking to the potential evolution of light consoles.  Prior to the X32 there were plenty of digital boards in the wild - they were just all very expensive and beyond the justifiable budget of nearly all weekend warriors, small theaters, and venues/users that make up probably 80% of those that work in this industry.  The big shows had digital (and could pay for it), but this was still somewhat of a minority.  Once the X32 hit the market many of these 80%ers were able to afford the jump to digital and benefit tremendously from the conversion...making the X32 one of the most popular digital boards ever produced having sold apparently around 700,000 units as of late 2019.

Do I think the QuickQ will do that?  In short, no, I don't.  Even more so, I don't think that any lighting console will ever hit that level of popularity.  I'd be curious to see the statistics for the ETC Express and grandMA2, but I digress...  I'm certainly one of the first to admit that there's definitely a hole in the market's offerings for products better than an ADJ Operator but not a Hog 4 that isn't a software solution, but I think in order to catch on with the 80%ers it'd have to be sub-$1000 with maybe an "extended" option that prices in around $1299.  Here's my reasoning...

Back in the day (around 2010) a budget 32 channel analog board was typically around $1000.  The Behringer flavors were a bit less while the A&H flavors were a bit more, and I'm generalizing here.  The pricepoint of the X32 wasn't all that much higher than the analog counterparts and was actually a bargain when you factor in all the outboard gear that you no longer needed.  It made financial sense for users of nearly all backgrounds to make the jump and enjoy the benefits.

Until the 80%ers demand better lighting, we're just never going to get there.  Many people (including the majority on this forum - no offense intended) are happy to spend good money on sound but refuse to spend more than $60 on an LED Par.  Why?  The ebay LED Par is "good enough" for the average band, club, DJ, and others who make up that 80% of equipment owners.  It doesn't make financial sense for these users to spend even $3000 on a console when it won't add a noticeable (and billable) improvement to justify ownership, along the same lines of buying Pars in the $600-800 price range.  Many bands don't even have a dedicated A1 let alone a dedicated LD.  Things like tablet control and portability now take priority over horsepower and effect engines. 

Big shows have the budgets and resources to hire in a grandMA to control the Mac Vipers, Robe Pointes, and whatnot, but the direct-from-China overhaul of budget lighting has conditioned people to not want to spend more than a few hundred dollars on a controller - tops.  I can't say that I disagree either.  Until the patrons are booking bands based on the quality of their lightshows I don't foresee this changing, but regardless I think it'll take a product selling around $799 with two universes onboard, wireless/foot pedal control, at least 20 assignable content faders, the standard programming palettes, and a powerful effects engine (including pixel mapping) to overhaul lighting the way that X32 did sound. 

Just my two cents of course, and I mean all this in the context of open discussion.  The QuickQs are a great option and I'm hoping to see these catch on a bit more.  I'm thinking that it would be ADJ/Elation to launch the product in the same way that Behringer/Midas handled the X/M32, but we shall see!           
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duane massey

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2020, 12:04:19 am »

I am not aware of any sub-$1k DMX controller other than a Showdesigner 1 that has the power and features to run a reasonably intricate show. It is not particularly live-show friendly but it can be quite effective if enough time is invested in pre-programming. You can't follow the concepts of the manual nor the online tutorials if you want to get the most out of it. It certainly is not going to work for everyone, but is well worth a look by anyone who wants a stand-alone controller.
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Duane Massey
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2020, 06:17:01 pm »

I am not aware of any sub-$1k DMX controller other than a Showdesigner 1 that has the power and features to run a reasonably intricate show. It is not particularly live-show friendly but it can be quite effective if enough time is invested in pre-programming. You can't follow the concepts of the manual nor the online tutorials if you want to get the most out of it. It certainly is not going to work for everyone, but is well worth a look by anyone who wants a stand-alone controller.

True, but you can get real close. A 300 dollar touchscreen laptop and a 1k dollar Chamsys Mini Wing lets gets you a pretty robust club-level "desk"
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Steven Cohen

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2020, 10:56:32 am »

Very true. A competent lighting programmer can program a great light show on many of the PC options out there and connect a DMX dongle and produce a great end result. One of the main deciding factors is programming time. For busking and one offs, a physical console is generally the way to go. On large events, programming costs, redundancy, and the ability to tweak focus points for a venue generally mean that a physical console is in order. I think that a show on a budget or a band in a van is the place for software based lighting control.

 
True, but you can get real close. A 300 dollar touchscreen laptop and a 1k dollar Chamsys Mini Wing lets gets you a pretty robust club-level "desk"
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2020, 02:30:38 pm »

Very true. A competent lighting programmer can program a great light show on many of the PC options out there and connect a DMX dongle and produce a great end result. One of the main deciding factors is programming time. For busking and one offs, a physical console is generally the way to go. On large events, programming costs, redundancy, and the ability to tweak focus points for a venue generally mean that a physical console is in order. I think that a show on a budget or a band in a van is the place for software based lighting control. 

With the blurring between a physical PC with connected physical wings, to a physical piece of hardware running the same software - to me it looks like there are five different types of lighting control now rather than simply two.

1) Dedicated hardware running 'pro' software - GrandMA 3 full size, Jands L5, Hog 4-18, etc
2) PC running 'pro' software with physical hardware wings - Vista EX by ChromaQ, Chamsys MagicQ PC Wing and multiple Extra Wings, Hog4 PC with Master and Playback Wings
3) PC running 'pro' software and no physical wings - Any of the big-dog brands I believe
4) Dedicated hardware running 'lite' software - Jands Stage CL, Chamsys QuickQ, Pathway Cognito, ETC ColorSource, older Show Designer, etc
5) Ultra-basic - LuminAIR (good) and all the 'cheap' options - Light Jockey, Show Xpress, Free Styler, etc

I like the second option, as I can have multiple large touch-screen monitors, multiple wings, often multiple networked for redundancy.  Lumping the second option with the fifth option doesn't help people looking for control. 

A lot of lighting control is interface - while someone could technically write a MS DOS software program that could do everything GrandMA does, for example - a text command prompt is nothing like physical hardware and multiple touch monitors! 

To me, it all comes down to two things - the underlying software, and the interface.  After that - budget.  For large shows, GrandMA is powerful and popular software, from there you choose the interface (PC with wings, dedicated hardware, etc).  For ultra simple shows - LuminAIR software and an iPad may be fine.  It's great that we can choose software that 'thinks like we think', and have multiple interface and price points available - with that software.  We don't need to limit ourselves to, "I only have $xxx budget, so I'm stuck with one of the more awful software programs."

Software - Interface. 
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2020, 07:55:47 pm »

With the blurring between a physical PC with connected physical wings, to a physical piece of hardware running the same software - to me it looks like there are five different types of lighting control now rather than simply two...

I agree completely.  For an X32 of the lighting world to emerge, we're going to need to see something that can unseat a Tier-1 product with the price point at or below the Tier-4 options with the user demand to back it up.  You could probably even split Tier-1 into a Tier-1A for the flagship full-sized desks like what you mention and a Tier-1B for the "compact" versions of the same series such as the grandMA3 Light, Road Hog 4, and even stretch that to my Congo Kid back when Cobalt was an ETC Flagship product. 

I think I can say that I own an example of all five categories and there are stark differences between them, but the biggest comes down to the user interface and workflow as you mention.  That's why the majority of "needs" I listed for a revolutionary desk would be related to workflow.  I'm sorry, but there's just no way I'm going to program a pixel grid using only a 32 character backlit LCD display!  For small jobs I'll usually run Nomad with an ETC Universal Fader Wing but for the busking-heavy gigs I'll be working with a full console even if on paper the software is the same.  I'm 100% for cheap solutions to help get people engaged in the art form, but as I say often enough, the cheap products are great until they're not!

 
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Dave Batistig

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2020, 02:13:15 pm »

With the blurring between a physical PC with connected physical wings, to a physical piece of hardware running the same software - to me it looks like there are five different types of lighting control now rather than simply two.

1) Dedicated hardware running 'pro' software - GrandMA 3 full size, Jands L5, Hog 4-18, etc
2) PC running 'pro' software with physical hardware wings - Vista EX by ChromaQ, Chamsys MagicQ PC Wing and multiple Extra Wings, Hog4 PC with Master and Playback Wings
3) PC running 'pro' software and no physical wings - Any of the big-dog brands I believe
4) Dedicated hardware running 'lite' software - Jands Stage CL, Chamsys QuickQ, Pathway Cognito, ETC ColorSource, older Show Designer, etc
5) Ultra-basic - LuminAIR (good) and all the 'cheap' options - Light Jockey, Show Xpress, Free Styler, etc

I like the second option, as I can have multiple large touch-screen monitors, multiple wings, often multiple networked for redundancy.  Lumping the second option with the fifth option doesn't help people looking for control. 

A lot of lighting control is interface - while someone could technically write a MS DOS software program that could do everything GrandMA does, for example - a text command prompt is nothing like physical hardware and multiple touch monitors! 

To me, it all comes down to two things - the underlying software, and the interface.  After that - budget.  For large shows, GrandMA is powerful and popular software, from there you choose the interface (PC with wings, dedicated hardware, etc).  For ultra simple shows - LuminAIR software and an iPad may be fine.  It's great that we can choose software that 'thinks like we think', and have multiple interface and price points available - with that software.  We don't need to limit ourselves to, "I only have $xxx budget, so I'm stuck with one of the more awful software programs."

Software - Interface.

Totally agree, and like you, I like Option 2, however, the cost of entry to Option 2 is still rather steep. Take for example the rig I use, Avolites Titan Mobile + wing + 23" Dell all in one PC. A new Titan Mobile is what? $3800.00, maybe a bit more. A new Wing is at least 2500...there is north of 6K, and we haven't bought a suitable PC to run the software on. With a good sized touch PC, this is a VERY capable lighting rig, and can be scaled down to be just the Mobile and a touch laptop for improved portability.

I keep going back and looking at the Chamsys QuickQ line as perhaps the best "compromise" between full featured "Option 1 or 2" rigs and the lower end PC only setups. I think Chamsys has hit upon a platform that may end up being the "x32" of the lighting world, albeit at a slightly higher cost of entry. Small, fully integrated form factor, reasonably powerful software, 3 options depending on how many handles you want on the console.
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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2020, 02:13:15 pm »


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