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Author Topic: Aiming Movers  (Read 7747 times)

Jeff Lelko

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2020, 09:03:48 PM »

The problem that I still think needs to be overcome is getting more "lounge level" users to demand better lighting.  While the QuickQ is the latest iteration of a budget board with diet pro features, the same could be said about the ETC ColorSource desks, the Pathway Cognito2, and others like Caleb mentioned.  I know many happy users with a Cognito2, and while it's great bang to buck it's no grandMA.  What's special about the X/M32 is that they can be found at jobs of all sizes and types.  While an M32 isn't a direct replacement for a top-tier Yamaha or Digico desk, I'd wager that given their rider acceptance and the universal knowledge of the M32 that it's certainly taken a bite out of the pro market.  The closest I've seen to this in the lighting world are the traveling LDs who walk in with MagicQ PC and a wing. 

The price piece I think will settle itself.  While I'd love a full grandMA3 for $10K, renting/buying one in is more or less an afterthought when also renting in six-figures worth of light fixtures.  Those working with Mac Vipers and the Clay Paky Mythos can afford the pro desks.  Those with the cheaper Elation and Chauvet Pro fixtures can usually drop $5-10K on an appropriate light console - whether they actually will is a different story.  It's the large percentage of uses mentioned in my previous post that would need to jump on the bandwagon of something better than LuminAIR or a flavor of ADJ/Chauvet DJ board in order for any console to sell anywhere near the 700,000 units that the X32 did and earn the industry respect to follow.  Given the popularity and acceptance of eBay/Amazon/China-direct fixtures I just don't see that happening any time soon.  Hopefully I'll be proven wrong though!   
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2020, 10:57:52 PM »

The problem that I still think needs to be overcome is getting more "lounge level" users to demand better lighting.  While the QuickQ is the latest iteration of a budget board with diet pro features, the same could be said about the ETC ColorSource desks, the Pathway Cognito2, and others like Caleb mentioned.  I know many happy users with a Cognito2, and while it's great bang to buck it's no grandMA.  What's special about the X/M32 is that they can be found at jobs of all sizes and types.  While an M32 isn't a direct replacement for a top-tier Yamaha or Digico desk, I'd wager that given their rider acceptance and the universal knowledge of the M32 that it's certainly taken a bite out of the pro market.  The closest I've seen to this in the lighting world are the traveling LDs who walk in with MagicQ PC and a wing. 

The price piece I think will settle itself.  While I'd love a full grandMA3 for $10K, renting/buying one in is more or less an afterthought when also renting in six-figures worth of light fixtures.  Those working with Mac Vipers and the Clay Paky Mythos can afford the pro desks.  Those with the cheaper Elation and Chauvet Pro fixtures can usually drop $5-10K on an appropriate light console - whether they actually will is a different story.  It's the large percentage of uses mentioned in my previous post that would need to jump on the bandwagon of something better than LuminAIR or a flavor of ADJ/Chauvet DJ board in order for any console to sell anywhere near the 700,000 units that the X32 did and earn the industry respect to follow.  Given the popularity and acceptance of eBay/Amazon/China-direct fixtures I just don't see that happening any time soon.  Hopefully I'll be proven wrong though!


Damn, I just looked at the Mythos, 9k a pop.  It makes the Viper look like a Chinese toy. 

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2020, 11:19:53 PM »


Damn, I just looked at the Mythos, 9k a pop.  It makes the Viper look like a Chinese toy.

Oh yes, and the Clay Paky Scenius Series is even more expensive!  I haven't seen pricing yet for the new Xtylos fixture that uses an RGB laser engine, but I'm sure it's eye-watering.  Said fixture made its North American debut late last year at Posty Fest.  The 178 of those plus something like 50 Mythos 2 units and another two dozen Scenius fixtures definitely made for a high-dollar light rig!  Considering that the Super Bowl only used (I think) 50 Xtylos fixtures really says something... hence my comment that when driving rigs like these the cost of a grandMA is an afterthought. 
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2020, 02:58:49 AM »

Oh yes, and the Clay Paky Scenius Series is even more expensive!  I haven't seen pricing yet for the new Xtylos fixture that uses an RGB laser engine, but I'm sure it's eye-watering.  Said fixture made its North American debut late last year at Posty Fest.  The 178 of those plus something like 50 Mythos 2 units and another two dozen Scenius fixtures definitely made for a high-dollar light rig!  Considering that the Super Bowl only used (I think) 50 Xtylos fixtures really says something... hence my comment that when driving rigs like these the cost of a grandMA is an afterthought.


Those Xtylos fixtures are even more impressive.  The beam striking the floor looks like it is burning a hole through the floor though.   The Scenius are 30% more but interesting they are for sale at 20% of that cost on usedlighting.com so the inventory turns fast and depreciates rapidly. 


I have no idea how the economics works at "Super Bowl" level events but as you said 1M with of lighting is just a line item on the budget.  Commercials cost 6M for 30 seconds and 100M people are watching.  It's as big time as it gets.


On a more local note we do quite a few weddings at the local art museum.  Audio is usually an afterthought.  They have an approved lighting vendor that gets looped in at the start of the planning and they work with the event planners.  Most of the time they show up with a bunch of battery powered uplights, the Qolorpoints, they are nicer than Chauvet Freedom Pars that we have.  They usually have a few movers too Sharpys, some nice Colorsource for gobo projection and of course an MA4 to run all of this.  Audio gets the scraps left over.  I don't get it but it is frustrating.  They also get to load in before we do and somehow end up at the dock first or second. 



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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
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Don T. Williams

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2020, 12:55:54 PM »


Those Xtylos fixtures are even more impressive.  The beam striking the floor looks like it is burning a hole through the floor though.

It might be!  I often work with a another company that has Chinese 7R "Sharpy" copies.  The first time they flew these from the truss on my stage trailer, they burned a half-dollar sized hole in the vinyl of one of my backline guitar amps while being focused.  It took just minutes.  We discovered the problem when someone noticed the wood floor of the stage was smoking where these were focused in their start position straight down and full on.  Most of the events I work usually have the lights at 16' to 25' above the stage with stage risers and set pieces that may be 4' to 8' high.  I have replaced the last of my discharge fixtures (ADJ RXONEs which I purchased in 2018 and 2019) with LED versions (Focus Beam LEDs) out of safety concerns.  Even with a 1R lamp at 12', the RXONs get dangerously hot.  It's not a problem when discharge-lamped beam fixtures are used as a floor package outdoors or in a large arena, but for a high school or college auditorium or theater rentals it would be.
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2020, 08:16:07 PM »

It might be!  I often work with a another company that has Chinese 7R "Sharpy" copies.  The first time they flew these from the truss on my stage trailer, they burned a half-dollar sized hole in the vinyl of one of my backline guitar amps while being focused.  It took just minutes.  We discovered the problem when someone noticed the wood floor of the stage was smoking where these were focused in their start position straight down and full on.  Most of the events I work usually have the lights at 16' to 25' above the stage with stage risers and set pieces that may be 4' to 8' high.  I have replaced the last of my discharge fixtures (ADJ RXONEs which I purchased in 2018 and 2019) with LED versions (Focus Beam LEDs) out of safety concerns.  Even with a 1R lamp at 12', the RXONs get dangerously hot.  It's not a problem when discharge-lamped beam fixtures are used as a floor package outdoors or in a large arena, but for a high school or college auditorium or theater rentals it would be.


I set a drum throne on fire with 7R Charpie's as we call them.  That was when I was alerted to the issue.



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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2020, 09:16:13 PM »

I'd be very interested to see if the laser engine of the Xtylos causes the same heating problem that many of the discharge beam units have.  I know the Xtylos doesn't require the same considerations that traditional lasers need and can be treated like any other fixture, but I'm sure as they become a bit more common we'll find out. 

I'm still in Camp Discharge, but don't blame you for switching Don.  I'd love to go all LED, but my typical events are of the size that LED is still very expensive for the non-wash fixtures (and even those can be a stretch).  I will say thought that I've had a very enjoyable experience with the Elation Dartz 360.  None in my personal inventory yet, but they're a neat fixture that packs a surprising punch for only using a single 50W RBG LED.  Definitely sufficient for featured use on small-medium events and as eye-candy effects for arena work, yet you can still put a dozen of these on a single 20A circuit.  Very cool lights.

I do agree with you Scott that it's interesting to see how fixtures depreciate differently, even when from the same manufacturer.  I've seen that legit Sharpys are finally down to under $1000 used.  I've also been toying with the idea of picking up a half-dozen Martin Atomic LED units since they're also around $1000 used these days. 

As far as the economics on larger jobs go, I've heard many people say that audio takes the leftovers.  My audio work isn't at that level so I can't personally compare, but when doing lights or pyro for larger events like you mention our product is definitely considered an integral part of the producer's vision.  A few years ago I shot pyro at an Art Museum as part of their "Great Gatsby Gala".  They wanted it to look like the movie, so things like sight lines and whatnot were very important to pull off the effect correctly.  It went well!  Even for the indoor close-prox effects we need to be very closely tied into the event planning so that I don't end up dropping fallout on the very expensive rented grand piano...  The massive Fourth of July displays are an even more complicated circus of logistics!   
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2020, 03:48:55 PM »




Jeff do you know anything about the Leviton 8700 series?  I am going through the manual it looks very robust.  Never heard of Leviton in that space.



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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2020, 06:21:54 PM »

Jeff do you know anything about the Leviton 8700 series?  I am going through the manual it looks very robust.  Never heard of Leviton in that space.

Hi Scott, yes, Leviton has been in the theatrical lighting arena for several decades.  I'm not sure of their exact history or how Leviton relates to NSI and Colortran but I've seen all three names used somewhat interchangeably (and occasionally together) on the same series of products.  I don't have any experience with the 8700 Series, but I do have extensive experience with the Leviton Innovator.  It was by far the most unreliable console I've ever used.  It would randomly crash, ghost, go rogue, and occasionally short out and desolder its PCBs...  You can read other horror stories about this board on Controlbooth, so it's safe to say that my experience with the desk wasn't unique. 

The 8700 Series does seem to be an improvement from that and offers some nice features for the price.  My only concern would be a lack of any real support with this outside of Leviton's customer help line itself.  Even a quick search over at Controlbooth doesn't seem to reveal any current users, and this is still a 13-15 year old product.  Maybe someone will come out of the woodwork if you ask the same question over there, but I'd be cautious with this one.  For similar money it looks like you can get a nice ChamSys board or stretch to buy a Hog 4 series desk...either of which is a much safer option in my opinion.  Hope this helps!
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2020, 06:34:36 PM »

Hi Scott, yes, Leviton has been in the theatrical lighting arena for several decades.  I'm not sure of their exact history or how Leviton relates to NSI and Colortran but I've seen all three names used somewhat interchangeably (and occasionally together) on the same series of products.  I don't have any experience with the 8700 Series, but I do have extensive experience with the Leviton Innovator.  It was by far the most unreliable console I've ever used.  It would randomly crash, ghost, go rogue, and occasionally short out and desolder its PCBs...  You can read other horror stories about this board on Controlbooth, so it's safe to say that my experience with the desk wasn't unique. 

The 8700 Series does seem to be an improvement from that and offers some nice features for the price.  My only concern would be a lack of any real support with this outside of Leviton's customer help line itself.  Even a quick search over at Controlbooth doesn't seem to reveal any current users, and this is still a 13-15 year old product.  Maybe someone will come out of the woodwork if you ask the same question over there, but I'd be cautious with this one.  For similar money it looks like you can get a nice ChamSys board or stretch to buy a Hog 4 series desk...either of which is a much safer option in my opinion.  Hope this helps!


Thanks, a little bit of digging, I have the manual and latest code now.  It was updated in 2017.    They were made my Lt-light out of Spain who is still in business.


I would never buy one new.  There is one for sale, in road case, looks really nice for next to nothing.  Might be fun to play with, learn big boy consoles.  I was hoping someone had some experience.  I am going to keep digging.



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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Aiming Movers
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2020, 06:34:36 PM »


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