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[Greg Harwood]

I really like the JBL VRX918P. Nice low end, not real large or heavy. Can add casters on the back

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[Jeff Lelko]

I really like the JBL VRX918P. Nice low end, not real large or heavy. Can add casters on the back

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While I won’t argue about the 918 being a good box, I disagree with this in the context of the discussion.  I’d think to be in the “acceptable minimum” category we’d be talking subwoofers in the <$1000 category.  The current $999 sale price of the KW181 would make this a contender in my opinion, as would likely some of the Yamaha options.  Thinking back 10+ years ago the UCS1s sold new for ~$750.  Add a bit more for an amp and they were right about $1000/piece - very hard to beat for that money.  Once the price starts creeping north of $1500 I’d argue that the value depreciates when compared to some of the very high output boxes from Danley/JTR/RCF that can do the job of 2-3 lesser boxes.  Just my thoughts!

[Caleb Dueck]

I'm not a QSC fan and can't see any value in them at the price. For almost literally a few dollars more you can get the JBL SRX-818 and have a box that is truly hard to beat both in performance and in features for the price.

The SRX says it will do 135db and has a range between 35-120hz at-3db ( not -10db ). While I don't believe for a second that the SRX will get as loud as it says it does, I own a pair and have compared it directly against the KW 181. I would take the SRX over the QSC any day. The JBL SRX line is that good and that hard to beat for the money. You can get better, even much better, for a higher price tag, but at its price point it is the king I feel.

I'm not in the market, just looking for more data points for when these systems come up. 

Seems like a big point of debate, with pros and cons either way, is multiple cheap boxes vs one higher-output, higher quality box.  Quantity 1 of a lower-cost (agreed, sub-$1k street price is a good threshold, sub+amp) sub to me only makes sense IF there is never any plan to do outdoor gigs or grow.  I can't think of many applications for a single, lower-priced sub - I've always 'needed' at least a TH115, even in small rooms - but that may be a personal problem!  I personally fall on the side of fewer, higher quality, higher output - as I can do both larger and smaller (turn down the gain) gigs.  That seems to nearly wipe out half of the sub options on the market. 

Haven't heard the SRX single 18, but the older SRX728's weren't impressive.  I didn't hear them side by side, but around the same time as a few different TH115 systems.  Glad to hear it does well against the KW181, I've heard/used that a few times.  For the minor cost difference, keeping the '+6dB' factor in mind - wouldn't it be better just to get the SRX828SP instead?

VRX918 - used them once, 4x of them outdoors, needed a lot more.  I kind of lumped them into the SRX category, maybe unfairly? 

Captivator 212 and especially the 215 - would like to hear.  The 215 specs almost look fake, but my other experience with JTR has been solid.

KW181 - crossed off the list as it's not a long-term, readily available 'go-to'.  Think quick and dirty bar band system that Bennett started years ago.  4 of them might equal 1 TH118XL from my experience, which makes them pricey.  They have been discontined.

UCS1 and UCS1P - have used the P versions multiple times, as long as there are multiples clustered together to get mouth area up - I have no complaints other than they don't go real deep, and the drivers are older (non-neo) by today's standards.  The non-P version I've only used as a center-clustered pair, and the low-end drop-off was noticeable. 

In a similar vein - also considered the LS1208's.  They lose out big time on dB per cu ft of truck pack but used them multiple times many years ago.  Fond memories of 3-4 per side as long as you don't need anything deep.  It looks like, for a bit more money, the Danley TH-Mini15's slightly best these - at a small fraction of the size.  They do make big, impressive-looking stacks though!

Form factor - not really a consideration, as this is more a general exploration; see quick and dirty bar band comment above, as this is mentally an extension of that thought process.  If gigs are consistently in rooms so tiny that a single 'normal' sized sub (dual 18", or Danley tapped horn) can't work - to me that's a non-standard limitation that needs non-standard gear, like the TH-Mini15, TH-Mini, Cap 212, older JTR Growler, etc.  Speaking of - I'd love an updated TH-Mini 2 with higher quality, higher power handling, neo driver... 

RSX218 - is competitively priced for a self-powered dual 18.  It's a 55Hz tone generator, designed on purpose to sound similar to the d&b B2.  Once you EQ out that big spike - there isn't a lot left.  I've heard it once but didn't spend much time with it. 

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Is it worth updating the Quick and Dirty Bar Rig spreadsheet again?  Maybe give each category an alternate, if there are 2-3 options that are very close and differ more in preference than outright quality?  Maybe tabs for 100-500 people rough audience size, 500-1500, etc?  Indoors vs outdoors for subwoofer quantities?  I'm willing to put in the time and make this if it would be helpful to the community, if someone else can host it. 

[Mark Wilkinson]

Minimum?

Decent boxes for what they are, like even lowly yam club series, work in the right situation, imo.
Like the yorkies mentioned, like any box with a decent driver, and engineered 7/8 right.
What's the situation? Or rather, what's the minimum situation ?

Sure, we may have to use more of the lowly subs to match a high spec box in a big situation,
but other than that, isn't it more about the operator than the box ?
You know, like golfer Lee Trevino once said, "a pro will beat you with an umbrella "






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[Scott Holtzman]

While I won’t argue about the 918 being a good box, I disagree with this in the context of the discussion.  I’d think to be in the “acceptable minimum” category we’d be talking subwoofers in the <$1000 category.  The current $999 sale price of the KW181 would make this a contender in my opinion, as would likely some of the Yamaha options.  Thinking back 10+ years ago the UCS1s sold new for ~$750.  Add a bit more for an amp and they were right about $1000/piece - very hard to beat for that money.  Once the price starts creeping north of $1500 I’d argue that the value depreciates when compared to some of the very high output boxes from Danley/JTR/RCF that can do the job of 2-3 lesser boxes.  Just my thoughts!

I am a torchbearer around here for KW181 and QSC in general.  At one point we had over 60 boxes of various KW.  We are down to 20 and I am getting ready to dump 4 more 181's and two 153's.


Why - As noted the SRX's outrun them, while this isn't a giant deal for the kind of clients we have it still matters.  Second the crossover is built into the sub so it works with any other brand powered speakers.  QSC puts the crossover in the mains, you have to run two signal cables up and down the pole.  We used matrices in the mixers too but that seems to be beyond the intellectually capacity of some of the guys we hire the gear out to so off the table.  Finally,  The QSC stuff still holds value, after almost a friggin' decade, I can sell them for $800 and add $200 and get the JBL's.  B stock is widely available on the SRX for under 1k.


Some non-sequitur  things that may matter to you.  The QSC is insanely reliable, easy to patch up and treated us very well.  We made great money on the gear and the clients loved it.  The VRX sub mentioned is low profile, as is the KW181 and our STX subs (the next line up, now discontinued from SRX).  I personally don't like the aesthetics of "stand up" subs and they look "tippy" to me, though they are not and the center of gravity is fine.


Nothing wrong with the QSC, the JBL just hits a few more points. 

[Steve M Smith]

QSC puts the crossover in the mains, you have to run two signal cables up and down the pole.

I was about to argue this point, but I realised you meant with a non QSC speaker on top.  When both are QSC, out of sub and into top is enough as both have crossovers. It's just that the sub doesn't give you a high pass output.
 

Steve.

[Helge A Bentsen]

Does it have to be new and active?

The latest compact sub I bought was a EAW SB1000z (roughly $600 used).
My small system is not active, so I had an amp for it.
Given the choice between a QSC and that, I'd take the SB1000 any day.
Plays nice, has castors and if it's going up a set of stairs I need extra hands anyway.

[Heath Eldridge]

Hugely depends on situation. I have a pair of PRX 818xlf

I think that when you factor in weight, they do a great job. Is there better? Absolutely. But I think they’d do a lot of gigs. I’d like to upgrade them but I’m put off by the weight of boxes that appear better and have high pass out.

I can’t even work out what the TH115 would cost In Australia.

[Jeff Lelko]

I'm not in the market, just looking for more data points for when these systems come up. 

I think what also might be worth noting here are the “minimum” logistics requirements.  Subwoofers come in all shapes and sizes - some of which are difficult to handle by an individual or need a commercial vehicle to transport. 

Probably the easiest bunch in the group are the tilt-back designs such as the UCS1 and TH118.  These can easily be moved by a single person and rolled up a ramp when loading (or into a tailgate via the tilt-and-slide technique).

After that I’d say it’s the dual 18s on casters - a bit on the heavy side but still loadable with a ramp or tilt-and-slide. 

Towards the bottom would have to be the single 18s.  While not obnoxiously heavy, the ergonomics of lifting 80-100+ pounds from such a low position can be tricky.  The difference in weight between the KW181 and newer KS118 will definitely be felt here.  Lifting these into a truck/van/SUV solo will definitely exceed what the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health recommends for safe lifting practices.  Whether or not that matters is up to you. 

Finally are the monster subs like the Danley BC218 that just don’t fit the context of this discussion nor are meant to be loaded into the family van for Uncle Jim’s JamFest.

Where I’m going with this is that size (and weight) matters.  While my current subs aren’t the loudest or lowest things out there, they are very friendly when it comes to logistics - so much so that I have no desire to switch them out for single 18s - even on the smaller jobs.  If and when the time comes to upgrade from these it’ll be to something substantially larger/heavier and with higher output at the expense of logistics - needing a truck with a lift gate to transport versus a utility van.  It’s also worth mentioning that the TH118XLs are too tall to break-over in a standard-height utility van.  All food for thought!   

[Tim McCulloch]

Well... there are dB/dollar, dB/lbs., dB/longest dimension and dB/cubic foot.  Deciding what factor(s) are the most important is what leads the decision tree pruning...

We see a lot of posts about "how heavy" an SRX-828 is, but it's less weight than 2 single 18s and is easier to handle than a single 18 (tip, not dead lift, for example).  IF you can transport it (dB/L.D.) it's very good in the dB/$ and dB/lbs categories.

If I can replace 2 SRX828 with a TH-118, the cu ft are similar, a change in L.D. that affects logistics, and a minimal weight increase.  The TH-118 still needs a channel from a 25 lbs power amp but that's minimal.  I'd save truck space and floor space with the TH-118.

If the subs have to fit in the back a Kia Soul, it's back into the single 18-size category and accepting the hits in the other categories.

Tis a puzzlement.

[ProSoundWeb Community]