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[Adam Mead]

Hey guys,
So I've been tasked with figuring out how to make my churches Ableton Live track setup redundant. We use Dante Virtual Soundcard to get the tracks to our Yamaha QL5 mixing console. They want to have 2 Ableton Live computers, one on stage (Primary), and one at FOH (Backup). My first thought was to see if Dante Controller would allow me to send 2 sources to one input at the board inside of Dante Controller, this doesn't work. So I looked into changing presets from within Dante Controller, and it takes too long and it cuts audio from anything else within the Dante Network. Our QL5 doesn't have enough open channels to route both computers' outputs to the soundboard at the same time. The only solution I can find are 2 Dante changeover devices that cost ~$4,000 (XDANTE-1 & DANTESW-1). Does anyone have any ideas for a cheaper solution?

[Jean-Pierre Coetzee]

Doesn't the QL5 have 72 channels? I would question if you are truly using all 72 because WOW if you are, PM me a patch list I'm interested.

I wouldn't do the change as a preset in Dante controller but rather just change the patching on the console, it shouldn't take out the entire Dante network.

Doesn't the QL series have a live and recording Bank of inputs, maybe you can use that feature? This would usually be used for virtual soundcheck, I have no idea what its specific name is.

Another solution would be finding out why your Ableton rig isn't robust enough that you need a backup. I mean I doubt you have a backup drum kit or keyboard ready to be hot patched in the middle of the service. If your having issues with the PC crashing or something then likely there is something that needs to change there.

[Mac Kerr]

Doesn't the QL5 have 72 channels? I would question if you are truly using all 72 because WOW if you are, PM me a patch list I'm interested.

I wouldn't do the change as a preset in Dante controller but rather just change the patching on the console, it shouldn't take out the entire Dante network.

Doesn't the QL series have a live and recording Bank of inputs, maybe you can use that feature? This would usually be used for virtual soundcheck, I have no idea what its specific name is.

Another solution would be finding out why your Ableton rig isn't robust enough that you need a backup. I mean I doubt you have a backup drum kit or keyboard ready to be hot patched in the middle of the service. If your having issues with the PC crashing or something then likely there is something that needs to change there.

^^^^This^^^^

[Adam Mead]

Another solution would be finding out why your Ableton rig isn't robust enough that you need a backup. I mean I doubt you have a backup drum kit or keyboard ready to be hot patched in the middle of the service. If your having issues with the PC crashing or something then likely there is something that needs to change there.

This is a great point. the only issue is when the Ableton computer has acted up in the past we haven't been able to find a reason why and if so we made the appropriate changes.

[Jean-Pierre Coetzee]

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209071469-Optimizing-Windows-for-Audio

Make sure you have followed that and also make sure the system meets required specs (a modern i7 processor with 8 gigs of rams should more that suffice)

This should be a single purpose machine. You don't edit videos or browse the web on your keyboard so don't do it on the Ableton machine.

If it's a Mac machine then turn off all the modern nonsense that comes with it like iCloud sync and all such nonsense. Also wait a reasonably long time between major version releases.

[Matthias McCready]

I work at a church that runs two redundant Ableton rigs at each campus. It is a pretty bullet proof setup, and I have not heard of any significant issues since installation.

We go analog (from USB interfaces) as opposed to over Dante, last time I talked the system engineer (who designed and built out the Ableton rigs) he stated this was due to increased reliability; I believe it also gives more access to troubleshooting. Another benefit is there are less channels coming in (10 rather than 20) while mitigating the major potential issues with running tracks.

There are two computers, both of which are running identical Ableton sessions. A single midi controller is hooked to both computers and is used to fire tracks. Each computer has a different brand of interface (also for redundancy I believe).

The interfaces are then plugged into a Radial SW8, which can switch instantly. This is triggered by absence of a 1k tone, which is sent from the first computer.

The change over in audio between rigs in inaudible, so no problem if that occurs midsong.

---

As far as channel usage goes, my guess is the OP may be double patching things for the ears? I know my current showfile at said church is about 111 channels, most of which are mono although I have several stereo, granted all the instrument channels are doubled patched, so not additional physical inputs in that respect.

[Jean-Pierre Coetzee]

OP did actually pop me a patch list. They are running 19 or 17 channels of track and that makes up the bulk of the channels I wasn't expecting.

If he doesn't come right with some of the other things then likely he can try to reduce the amount of tracks coming from Ableton. I'm pretty sure a similar setup to yours can be done over Dante but with the patching happening with Dante in stead of analogue.

[Adam Mead]

I wouldn't do the change as a preset in Dante controller but rather just change the patching on the console, it shouldn't take out the entire Dante network.

Does anyone know how to change the patching like this in a quick manner? I'd assume you could use a user define key to trigger it, I just don't know how to get there.

[Matthias McCready]

OP did actually pop me a patch list. They are running 19 or 17 channels of track and that makes up the bulk of the channels I wasn't expecting.

If he doesn't come right with some of the other things then likely he can try to reduce the amount of tracks coming from Ableton. I'm pretty sure a similar setup to yours can be done over Dante but with the patching happening with Dante in stead of analogue.

Makes sense

If over dante that would be great, but for the OP I would still advocate for something that can switch over seamlessly and automatically.

I know for our particular setup the computers have to be close to each other as the midi controller uses USB. While I am not super familiar with Ableton, I have it in the back of my head that sessions can be perhaps networked over ethernet, but I am not sure how this works (not my area of knowledge) or if I am remembering correctly.

To the OP I would ask:
1. Is managing the Ableton session in addition to FOH duties something you have the focus for? Keep in mind I am presuming if the main computer went down you would be firing click, and managing repeating sections (greetings, host spots etc). I believe there is some sense in having the same person manage both computers (be they on or off stage).

2. Switching speed. From my perspective close to 20 channels of tracks means that is an essential component of your service, I would also guess it is potentially controlling lighting or perhaps video world via SMPTE? So in addition to no audio gap, I think there should be criteria that can switch it automatically. While yes you could potentially come up with some sort of user define key, that would still rely on your response time, which on the quick end is probably 3-6 seconds. This is presuming you are on your toes and don't need to wait to hear from the band to confirm what is wrong. Computers crash, sometimes at inopportune times.

I have not used Dante a lot, however, I would also guess there is a way to automatically switch things over. However, I think replicating something like the Radial SD8 digitally would be a must for you and your situation

Curious to hear about what you figure out, I always love learning about new solutions to problems such as this.

[Bill Meeks]

Does anyone know how to change the patching like this in a quick manner? I'd assume you could use a user define key to trigger it, I just don't know how to get there.

Not positive about a QL5, but I have both an LS9 and a TF5 in our church (for different areas) and both offer a direct scene recall mapping for the User Defined Keys. So you could create a duplicate scene but with alternate input patching for one of them, and then just immediately recall that scene if necessary. For example, say Channel #70 is mapped to Dante RX70 in one scene but the same channel is mapped to Dante RX71 in the other. I think the QL5 is at least as versatile as the LS9 in regards to input patching. The TF5, sadly, is not. Your mapping choices are hardwired to a large extent on the lower end board.

Using the direct scene recall option woud be quick, but probably not totally inaudible. Since the QL5 is sort of the replacement for the older LS9, I would expect it to have similar features and then some.

[ProSoundWeb Community]