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[Steve Oldridge]

This is probably a Bob Leonard question.. but I'll post it here anyways...
Figured I'd throw this "dumb" question out as I can't find the answer anywhere.

BACKGROUND:
I have been hired to run a local church system FOH Sun am.
It's an "all jacked up" (as is typical with churches with volunteers) Si Exp III console, running the OLDER (1.7_v9) firmware
It has the 14 output busses routed to stage monitors, IEM's, Aviom's, live feeds, foyer, back rooms, etc.  MTX mixes also!

They are NOT setup per system defaults and have channel settings that override the default out buss, pre/post settings. 
There are 3 channel settings for each of the 14...
PRE-DYN, POST-EQ and POST-FADE.
I have both green (POST) and yellow (PRE) "glow" channels on ALL 14 output busses.

QUESTION:
Where is the POST-FADE tap coming from... post fade on input channel main layer, post fade on selected buss (sends on) fader, or from where?

I know what post-fade means on most other consoles I've run, but I can't find a clear definition in the SC manual, online, etc.
Plus, I only have access to the console an hour before service on a Sun... and that's service rehearsal time! 

I need to clean this up.. and I'm using the offline editor to dissect the show file I saved to USB.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[Steve Oldridge]

BUMP

[David Junius]

This is probably a Bob Leonard question.. but I'll post it here anyways...
Figured I'd throw this "dumb" question out as I can't find the answer anywhere.

BACKGROUND:
I have been hired to run a local church system FOH Sun am.
It's an "all jacked up" (as is typical with churches with volunteers) Si Exp III console, running the OLDER (1.7_v9) firmware
It has the 14 output busses routed to stage monitors, IEM's, Aviom's, live feeds, foyer, back rooms, etc.  MTX mixes also!

They are NOT setup per system defaults and have channel settings that override the default out buss, pre/post settings. 
There are 3 channel settings for each of the 14...
PRE-DYN, POST-EQ and POST-FADE.
I have both green (POST) and yellow (PRE) "glow" channels on ALL 14 output busses.

QUESTION:
Where is the POST-FADE tap coming from... post fade on input channel main layer, post fade on selected buss (sends on) fader, or from where?

I know what post-fade means on most other consoles I've run, but I can't find a clear definition in the SC manual, online, etc.
Plus, I only have access to the console an hour before service on a Sun... and that's service rehearsal time! 

I need to clean this up.. and I'm using the offline editor to dissect the show file I saved to USB.

Thanks in advance for the help!

I think I understand your question. When you select one of the 14 mix busses, it should glow yellow if it’s globally selected as a pre fade send and green if it’s a post fade send just  like the old analog days of globally selected pre/post auxes. The matrix sends will glow orange and by default are not assigned to an output. You mention that basically everything has been rerouted in the board, so unfortunately that will make it difficult for you.  I’ll have to check, but I believe only mix busses can be sent to matrix outs. I guess I need to go dig out my boards and scroll through the menus to remember, I don’t usually use matrix sends on my shows! Does this help a little?

David

[Tim McCulloch]

This is probably a Bob Leonard question.. but I'll post it here anyways...
Figured I'd throw this "dumb" question out as I can't find the answer anywhere.

BACKGROUND:
I have been hired to run a local church system FOH Sun am.
It's an "all jacked up" (as is typical with churches with volunteers) Si Exp III console, running the OLDER (1.7_v9) firmware
It has the 14 output busses routed to stage monitors, IEM's, Aviom's, live feeds, foyer, back rooms, etc.  MTX mixes also!

They are NOT setup per system defaults and have channel settings that override the default out buss, pre/post settings. 
There are 3 channel settings for each of the 14...
PRE-DYN, POST-EQ and POST-FADE.
I have both green (POST) and yellow (PRE) "glow" channels on ALL 14 output busses.

QUESTION:
Where is the POST-FADE tap coming from... post fade on input channel main layer, post fade on selected buss (sends on) fader, or from where?

I know what post-fade means on most other consoles I've run, but I can't find a clear definition in the SC manual, online, etc.
Plus, I only have access to the console an hour before service on a Sun... and that's service rehearsal time! 

I need to clean this up.. and I'm using the offline editor to dissect the show file I saved to USB.

Thanks in advance for the help!

Steve, I don't own a Performer and don't use one very often (maybe once a quarter) and it's a direct to stereo thing with 4 wedge mixes someone else configured and just seem to work... IOW I've not needed to look at the details.

But... I'd think that there's a block diagram in the manual that shows the various pick-offs.

What's the confusion from?  Sending a bus to a matrix?  Either post EQ, pre bus main fader or post EQ post bus main fader are the most typical options.  Ditto for buses feeding L/R.  Input channel feeding a bus?  Probably pre-EQ pre-fader, post eq post fader.  Maybe something in between like pre eq, post dynamics, pre fader is possible, too, (X32/M32 can do this)...

Without downloading the manual I'm confused by your confusion!

[Steve Oldridge]

Steve, I don't own a Performer and don't use one very often (maybe once a quarter) and it's a direct to stereo thing with 4 wedge mixes someone else configured and just seem to work... IOW I've not needed to look at the details.

But... I'd think that there's a block diagram in the manual that shows the various pick-offs.

What's the confusion from?  Sending a bus to a matrix?  Either post EQ, pre bus main fader or post EQ post bus main fader are the most typical options.  Ditto for buses feeding L/R.  Input channel feeding a bus?  Probably pre-EQ pre-fader, post eq post fader.  Maybe something in between like pre eq, post dynamics, pre fader is possible, too, (X32/M32 can do this)...

Without downloading the manual I'm confused by your confusion!

Thanks for the reply..   Same to you David!

I haven't replied before now because I've been trying to figure out over the last 24 hrs why my forum page refresh tells me I'm banned - FOR LIFE! - and whom to contact resolve.  See attachmemt!
Turns out it looks to be a browser bug (FF) because I changed browsers - in exasperation - and here I am!!   <phew>

Anyway..  It's not the matrix (MTX) mixes..
I have Buss 14 going to a live mix...  the buss is post-fader by default.
When selecting the buss and looking at the layers, I show FOUR channels glowing yellow (PRE),the rest green (POST).
When checking one of the channels, the "inputs and vca" screen shows buss 14 set to PRE-DYN.overiding the default POST for that buss.

I'm trying to figure out the impact to the buss mix and where that channel level override causes the buss tap to occur?
I'm "assuming" it's what it says.. being PRE-DYN or POST-EQ ....

The system had both digital stage box (Dante) with an Aviom send unit attached, and hard wired stage inputs at various locations on the stage.
For example.. string orchestra mics were disconnected last Sun am when I got there. Not having configured the system I did not know where they were hooked up.
Turns out there were 6 mics/cables connected to a floor box (under the choir) labeled 40-46, that mapped to input channels MIC17, 21, 28-32, but channels 17-22 on main layer B!
It's a mess..
I'm running  both the House and live feed mixes simultaneously..  some has [previously]  added 5 VCA groups (of 8 available) to EVERY one of the 4 console layers!!!1  WHY?
ALL 8 are there by default on Layer D!!

I get there an hour before service on Sunday when they open the bldg - can't get in during the week - and don't have time to straighten out their mess while pre-service rehearsals are going on!
So I"m stuck with fixing what I can.
 

[Tim McCulloch]

Yeah, the big questions are 'why do only a few inputs deviate from expected pre/post pick offs?'

Does Soundcraft have an offline show editor for the Si?  Might be the only way to really dig down inside to see what's going on and then speculate how those things might be used.

Having the same 5 DCA groups on every layer?  That's something the previous operator wanted fast access to, so what do they control?

[Douglas R. Allen]

   I don't own a SoundCraft so just general thoughts. For me I like to have 3 stereo Bus sends. One for Vocal's, Instruments and Drums setup. This gives fast access to them. Makes it easy to keep the Channel faders around the 0 db area and when these Bus Masters are adjusted it doesn't mess with the Post Fade sends from channels the way DCA's do. ( I have effect returns to these Buses as well ) Could be a few channels were assigned this way.
  Is there any chance the person before you simply didn't know what they were doing? Or any chance you could reach the person to sort it out?

Douglas R. Allen

[David Junius]

Thanks for the reply..   Same to you David!

Anyway..  It's not the matrix (MTX) mixes..
I have Buss 14 going to a live mix...  the buss is post-fader by default.
When selecting the buss and looking at the layers, I show FOUR channels glowing yellow (PRE),the rest green (POST).
When checking one of the channels, the "inputs and vca" screen shows buss 14 set to PRE-DYN.overiding the default POST for that buss.

I'm trying to figure out the impact to the buss mix and where that channel level override causes the buss tap to occur?
I'm "assuming" it's what it says.. being PRE-DYN or POST-EQ ....

The system had both digital stage box (Dante) with an Aviom send unit attached, and hard wired stage inputs at various locations on the stage.
For example.. string orchestra mics were disconnected last Sun am when I got there. Not having configured the system I did not know where they were hooked up.
Turns out there were 6 mics/cables connected to a floor box (under the choir) labeled 40-46, that mapped to input channels MIC17, 21, 28-32, but channels 17-22 on main layer B!
It's a mess..
I'm running  both the House and live feed mixes simultaneously..  some has [previously]  added 5 VCA groups (of 8 available) to EVERY one of the 4 console layers!!!1  WHY?
ALL 8 are there by default on Layer D!!

I get there an hour before service on Sunday when they open the bldg - can't get in during the week - and don't have time to straighten out their mess while pre-service rehearsals are going on!
So I"m stuck with fixing what I can.

Well now I need to go look at my console just to see where it is by default. Plus I thought to only way to get a DCA was by assigning that channel to a mix buss and just returning that buss to the main mix, I didn’t think the expression had separate DCA’s. Can you have access to the system during the week? This does sound like a mess.

David

[Rich Wirz]

Channels can be individually assigned in a mix bus on a Performer.  Select mix bus 14 and on the menu select Outputs & DMX.  Select the channel you want to change and use the encoder to scroll down to Per Mix post/pre.  Scroll to Mix 14 and push the encoder and you will have the options to change that channel's routing. 

[Christopher Irwin]

They are NOT setup per system defaults and have channel settings that override the default out buss, pre/post settings. 

QUESTION:
Where is the POST-FADE tap coming from... post fade on input channel main layer, post fade on selected buss (sends on) fader, or from where? I know what post-fade means on most other consoles I've run

Answer: the post-fade source for the bus you are working on comes after the fader of the main channel layer as is standard on almost every console I've ever worked on. And the pre-fade comes before the "main mix fader." All aux sends are after the "sends-on-fader fader" no matter what...I suppose it was less confusing in the analog days when there was only one fader per channel and the aux volume was on a knob (at which point they were always post-knob). I'm not quite sure where the confusion is there, the term is pretty standardized in the industry.


As far as having some channels pre and some post on the same buss that is also a standard option on most digital consoles (and some analog consoles).  Usually the person who sets up the console starts with a buss being globally pre or post and then sometimes chooses to change some channels inside of that buss - For example, I set all playback channels to post-fade in monitor mixes (while of course everything else is pre-fade in that mix). I often need to fade out the end of a video or a song for a dance routine and it's super awkward if the wedges keep blaring. I'm sure there is a wide variety of other reasons someone might choose to change these settings, so really it just comes down to knowing why an engineer set up the console the way they did.

[Steve Oldridge]

   I don't own a SoundCraft so just general thoughts. For me I like to have 3 stereo Bus sends. One for Vocal's, Instruments and Drums setup. This gives fast access to them. Makes it easy to keep the Channel faders around the 0 db area and when these Bus Masters are adjusted it doesn't mess with the Post Fade sends from channels the way DCA's do. ( I have effect returns to these Buses as well ) Could be a few channels were assigned this way.
  Is there any chance the person before you simply didn't know what they were doing? Or any chance you could reach the person to sort it out?

Douglas R. Allen

Yes, they do have an offline editor... I saved a show and loaded it up on my PC.
I've been digging thru it.. looks like the prior operator had little clue what they were doing.  Not sure why the VCA groups exist on 3 of the 4 layers!!
I worked this church back from Nov 2017 thru May 2018 and had the console squared away.
They hired a full-time community college audio "grad" to be on staff... and things were changed added, re-routed, etc.. so my prior show backups were useless, and I'm starting from scratch again.
For example.. there are input channels (piano) that have direct outs assigned, but based on label I can't trace where those "outs" actually go to..
I'll keep plugging away..

[Steve Oldridge]

Channels can be individually assigned in a mix bus on a Performer.  Select mix bus 14 and on the menu select Outputs & DMX.  Select the channel you want to change and use the encoder to scroll down to Per Mix post/pre.  Scroll to Mix 14 and push the encoder and you will have the options to change that channel's routing.

Thanks.. I'm aware of that capability, how to select, etc... 
What I was asking was where those 3 tap points physically occu, and trying to figure out why someone would configure a "post" bus with setting individual channel overrides to PRE/POST-EQ in the mix!

[Steve Oldridge]

Answer: the post-fade source for the bus you are working on comes after the fader of the main channel layer as is standard on almost every console I've ever worked on. And the pre-fade comes before the "main mix fader." All aux sends are after the "sends-on-fader fader" no matter what...I suppose it was less confusing in the analog days when there was only one fader per channel and the aux volume was on a knob (at which point they were always post-knob). I'm not quite sure where the confusion is there, the term is pretty standardized in the industry.


As far as having some channels pre and some post on the same buss that is also a standard option on most digital consoles (and some analog consoles).  Usually the person who sets up the console starts with a buss being globally pre or post and then sometimes chooses to change some channels inside of that buss - For example, I set all playback channels to post-fade in monitor mixes (while of course everything else is pre-fade in that mix). I often need to fade out the end of a video or a song for a dance routine and it's super awkward if the wedges keep blaring. I'm sure there is a wide variety of other reasons someone might choose to change these settings, so really it just comes down to knowing why an engineer set up the console the way they did.

Thanks or the answer      I thought it was, but have been unable to get console access in the building with time to confirm. They have live feeds, lobby and other rooms running off the AUX busses, and the no-one can tell me WHY they are configured the way they are.. and the lack of doc and cable labeling/routing info isn't helping me make sense of it.

On the pre/post channel assign.. I can see your description/example as being entirely valid.
I have have the stereo (H/L) piano mics and the stereo feed from the iMac (ProPresenter) channels set to PRE on one buss.AUX when all others are set to POST !!

They're expecting pro-quality mixing. I'm trying to set this up and get a handle on it "toot-sweet" as I KNOW I'm going to have to mix a LARGE Easter production - probably with 7 wireless VOX. 25-person choir, 10-piece hand bell section, timpani, electric drums, bass gtr, acoustic + electric guitars, an 8-piece orchestra (2 violin, 2 cello, viola, flute, clarinet, upright bass) plus a 4-piece horn section - based on me mixing that for their Easter 2018 service!  46 inputs that year as visiting FOH with a 2-hr Sat am rehearsal! 

And I'm not a pro, like many on here! Glorified weekend warrior w/ day job!!

[Russell Ault]

Not sure why the VCA groups exist on 3 of the 4 layers!!

Tim already spoke to this, but there are a lot of operators (myself included) who tend to do all the show mixing on VCAs. With some shows if things are going well I literally don't touch the input faders at all during the show. For that to work I need access to the VCAs regardless of whatever else I might be doing on the console, so they have to show up (in the same place) on every page. I don't want to miss the start of a guitar solo because I'm tweaking a vocal EQ on a different page.

-Russ

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