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Author Topic: Can RGBW Washes Replace Ellipsoidals?  (Read 1463 times)

Luke McCready

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Re: Can RGBW Washes Replace Ellipsoidals?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2020, 06:01:48 pm »

Thanks, Dave!
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Can RGBW Washes Replace Ellipsoidals?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2020, 06:43:27 pm »

Thanks to everyone for your consideration and response.


The reason I've kept this thread going and asked again is that a vendor I was courting said that a pastor lit by zoomable LED movers instead of ellipsoidals would look awful on camera and awful in person in terms of quality of light, not shape of light. Wouldn't that come down to color temperature, more-or-less known as it can be set, and CRI, an unknown for fixtures like the R1X Wash?



CRI is what you should be mostly concerned with. Then a close second is the olor temp of the fixtures. The ultimate color temp doesn't matter, but don't mix different fixtures of different temperatures.

I chose the Warm White fixtures (3000K) because it matches our house lighting, and I think it looks better "in person". The cameras don't care what color the light is as long as it's all the same and of a high CRI value. Neutral white or cool white looks a little more rock and roll in person if you want to go that route. CW looks awesome in haze.
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Jeff Lelko

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Re: Can RGBW Washes Replace Ellipsoidals?
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2020, 05:08:06 pm »

I don't view my design as a gamble: it's a lot better suited for our space and what we do than the three designs I've received from vendors that don't charge.

Just out of curiosity, what was it that you didn't like about the three designs that you were offered?  What were the qualifications of those doing the work...especially if doing it for free?  Did they visit your venue, listen to your needs, and offer realistic solutions?

I don't have any confusion on the roles of fresnels and ellipsoidals in terms of size, shape, and edges. I understand that though zoomable LED washes such as the Rogue R1X Wash can control the size of the light, there will be a softer edge around the beam relative to an ellipsoidal. I'm not particularly concerned about that for our use-case.

- - - - -

The reason I've kept this thread going and asked again is that a vendor I was courting said that a pastor lit by zoomable LED movers instead of ellipsoidals would look awful on camera and awful in person in terms of quality of light, not shape of light. Wouldn't that come down to color temperature, more-or-less known as it can be set, and CRI, an unknown for fixtures like the R1X Wash?

The only question I'm still unsure of: is there something magical about the light from an ellipsoidal, and if so, is it due to the CRI? And if not, understanding shape of light, is it reasonable to light the pastor with movable, zoomable washes, freeing up 15% of our fixture budget for greater room engagement?

The answer, once again, is beam control.  Tim gave a great example of spill control where edges and framing are a concern.  Another is when I want to call attention to a very specific area of the stage.  In addition to Tim's example, I can easily light a 3x3' set piece on the stage from 100ft away without any spill.  A Par will never give you that level of control.  Additionally, ellipsoidals have a very even beam.  A properly adjusted fixture will have no hot spots.  LED Pars - no way.  Aside from units that blur the line such as the Elation Fuze or Chauvet COLORado Solo series, LED Pars - moving or not - will not offer an even field of light nor are they always uniform in color (i.e. fringing).  CRI is a product of the unit's light engine, whereas the properties of the beam itself is a function of optics.  Being poor in either category will result in an undesirable product that looks unnatural both in person and on camera.

Have you tried to demo any of these fixtures?  I would think that a demo would be mandatory to see how the fixtures look (and sound) in your venue before making such a purchase.  See which ones look best on camera.  Yes, you can absolutely light someone with moving lights - I do it all the time - but using the wrong fixture for the task won't do you any favors.  There's much more to lighting design than just knowing how to program the board (and in fact many designers have a dedicated technician for that task).  I think you would benefit tremendously from demoing or renting a few different fixture types - including a high-quality LED ellipsoidal - to compare in your own space.  Hope this helps!     

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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: Can RGBW Washes Replace Ellipsoidals?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2020, 04:15:31 pm »

I just did the conversion and 10' is about 3 meters. Honestly that is 2 ellipsoids and a back/down light from any reasonable trim height. Just get the correct lens.
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Luke McCready

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Re: Can RGBW Washes Replace Ellipsoidals?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2020, 05:28:23 pm »

Apologies for straying from the thread's topic:

Jeff, regarding the quotes, I've had two-onsite visits so far and have communicated with three more vendors that didn't visit. Interestingly, it's the larger local installers that don't want to visit, are willing to generate designs for free, and do not offer much if any discount on pricing.

The issues I've run into just come down to a lack of atunement to our needs. A few examples:

- Reliability for singer-spot movers is important, but they underspec on brand and brightness
- Recommendations for underpowered fixtures for wash movers with dim head effects that wouldn't be useful or even visible to the audience
- Confusing projecting effects, like the Maverick Pyxis, with LED-backlit plastic, like the Blizzard Wink
- Significantly over-speccing for minimal fixtures, like drum cage pars, even jumping two tiers of brands compared to the rest of the quote
- Speccing zooming fixed lights where we don't need to zoom and can't afford to spring for the upgrade
- Our current bar lights are plenty bright: I got a recommendation for bar lights that are 4x brighter than what we have, when a bar light half the cost is still 2x brighter than what we have and can do two more colors than the more expensive one

I know what we have now, how I and my other LDs use them, which fixtures and placements create the biggest wow-factor for the size/price, which fixtures are barely worth including in my programming, and where the current lighting system's weak-spots are: poor room engagement and a severe lack of effects.

With this in mind, creating a design (inspired by the current system's design, which fits the venue's needs better than most systems in most venues I've used) was easy and fun. The biggest challenge was getting a handle on which low/mid priced brands are okay and which aren't, and getting answers to a few specific questions, like in this thread. (Thanks, everyone!)

Designing the new system myself, ordering fixtures at the best price, and paying a local company I trust to rig and install for a reasonable price will provide us a mid-brand-name system with twice the room engagement, twice the brightness, wider color palettes to work with, and loads more effects and choices to make each song look different. All at a price 25-40% cheaper than the pro firms and their designers have been offering to provide.
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Luke McCready

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Re: Can RGBW Washes Replace Ellipsoidals?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2020, 05:35:57 pm »

Additionally, ellipsoidals have a very even beam.  A properly adjusted fixture will have no hot spots.  LED Pars - no way.  Aside from units that blur the line such as the Elation Fuze or Chauvet COLORado Solo series, LED Pars - moving or not - will not offer an even field of light nor are they always uniform in color (i.e. fringing).  CRI is a product of the unit's light engine, whereas the properties of the beam itself is a function of optics.  Being poor in either category will result in an undesirable product that looks unnatural both in person and on camera.

Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for!
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Can RGBW Washes Replace Ellipsoidals?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2020, 05:35:57 pm »


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