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Author Topic: M32 - X32 Noise Gate Look ahead setup. (Renamed)  (Read 553 times)

Douglas R. Allen

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M32 - X32 Noise Gate Look ahead setup. (Renamed)
« on: February 05, 2020, 06:06:33 am »

I've watched this video and I can see its merits as far as pre opening a gate by the trigger on a channel with some delay added to it. I've been thinking of this and wondered if it would work with 2 channels being fed by 1 preamp on a digital desk? Have 1 input feed 2 channel strips. Channel 1 would be the "Trigger" channel. Channel 2 in this example could be the "Live" channel. Channel 1 not assigned to anything. For this example we are on a snare. Have channel 1 setup so it opens with the Key Filter set to the snares natural peak. Say 2k in this example. Have the live channels gate set to the "Trigger channel's gate"  with its Delay on and start with the 0.3 and go from there. I may have the time today to try it. I'm guessing a few here may have tried it and what were your results?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uel1hlR68yM&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2R-5emLBo0Z4Xd7caLaAr_SEv6GqQSeyIvRexguDFV3zvNwBtYqwyopFg

Thanks;
Douglas R. Allen
« Last Edit: February 06, 2020, 06:11:14 am by Douglas R. Allen »
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: Trigger Gate delay control or 2 channel strip gate pre open questions.
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2020, 07:39:28 am »

I've watched this video and I can see its merits as far as pre opening a gate by the trigger on a channel with some delay added to it. I've been thinking of this and wondered if it would work with 2 channels being fed by 1 preamp on a digital desk? Have 1 input feed 2 channel strips. Channel 1 would be the "Trigger" channel. Channel 2 in this example could be the "Live" channel. Channel 1 not assigned to anything. For this example we are on a snare. Have channel 1 setup so it opens with the Key Filter set to the snares natural peak. Say 2k in this example. Have the live channels gate set to the "Trigger channel's gate"  with its Delay on and start with the 0.3 and go from there. I may have the time today to try it. I'm guessing a few here may have tried it and what were your results?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uel1hlR68yM&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2R-5emLBo0Z4Xd7caLaAr_SEv6GqQSeyIvRexguDFV3zvNwBtYqwyopFg

Thanks;
Douglas R. Allen

I just tried it and thought I'd post my results. 
Desk Midas M32R
Channel 1 was bass drum feeding the PA.
Channel 25 was the Trigger Channel being fed by the same input as channel 1.

First thing I found was Channel 25 can be set flat with no gates,compressors etc as these have no effect on the send to channel 1.
2nd the Trim on channel 25 effects the gate on channel 1  ;) Nice. (when using a X-live type card for playback )
3rd the delay on channel 1 does hold back the channel so the gate "looks ahead" and will open sooner than the Drum hit goes through on channel 1.

What I did was make Channel 1 sound really bad by setting the gates attack to 0. Next I set the gate to trigger off channel 25. On channel 25 I set the Trim to Plus 8db's (although I could go higher) Just with this the gate open sooner and it almost sounded fine. Last I turned on the delay on channel 1. The 0.3 was close but as I went higher to around 1 to 1.5 ms all the terrible sound of having the gates attack set to 0 was gone and it really sounded great!

If in the studio or maybe even live I can see this working. 1.5 ms is roughly the time it takes for the "Click" sound to go from the beater head to the front hole on the drum. I mic inside so I feel this may work ok for live as well. I know the sound and channel 1's gate really is improved when delay is added to the channel and it is  triggered from the other channel. If you have a spare channel this may be something you can try.

Douglas R. Allen

"EDIT for Clarity".  The Trim Control on 25 is available when using the X-Live type cards. When using a analog preamp to feed 1 and 25 they share the same gain with no added gain available on channel 25 that effects the input to channel 1. I found if you needed 3 miliseconds of attack to get a bass drum to sound good on its gate adding 3/4ms of delay on channel 1 with its gate being triggered from channel 25 it opens great and sounds like there is no gate on the channel with the attack set to 0. When the first wave from the bass drum hits the gate is already open and you don't notice the gate until it closes.



« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 06:21:55 pm by Douglas R. Allen »
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: M32 - X32 Noise Gate Look ahead setup. (Renamed)
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2020, 04:26:53 am »

Wouldn't it be viable to also delay all the other instruments by the same amount. Maybe a 1 or 2 ms delay wouldn't be that bad but what benefit do you get from the look ahead gate?

I am interested and it seems pretty simple to implement but I'm just wondering what problem this is solving, the click from a 0ms gate? I find I haven't ever had an issue using a slightly slower gate and just going with that.
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: M32 - X32 Noise Gate Look ahead setup. (Renamed)
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2020, 07:15:03 am »

Wouldn't it be viable to also delay all the other instruments by the same amount. Maybe a 1 or 2 ms delay wouldn't be that bad but what benefit do you get from the look ahead gate?

I am interested and it seems pretty simple to implement but I'm just wondering what problem this is solving, the click from a 0ms gate? I find I haven't ever had an issue using a slightly slower gate and just going with that.


     Just something I tried and it works so I shared it. The best thing of course is the gate opens before the signal reaches it. There is no cutting off the first waveform at all. When you add an attack time to a normal gate it opens slower so it cuts off some of the first waveform. By setting up delay for the channel the gate will be open before the first waveform reaches it.   As far as delay in relation to the rest of the kit, in the case of drums if your using overheads, these microphones are roughly 2 to 3 feet or so above the kit.  In the area of 3/4 ms. ( using .89 ms per foot ) Some people delay there kick, toms, and snare to the overhead distance from them as they say it tightens the kit up. Delaying toms,bass drum and snare this way may tighnen it up as well. Some like doing this others don't and want the natural sound.  For me I have the X-Live card in my desk. I did everything I could to get a snare mic gate to sound as best as possible with no delay setup.  Key filter, attack times, hold , release , attenuation etc. and then with the delay setup and the gates attack time set to 0 it just sounded better to me. It sounded more like I had the gate off.  Its something a person has to try and see if its a benifit to them or not.
    As you say it is really easy to do. If you have a X-Live type card in your desk or a DAW its easy to give it a listen and try it out.  I'll know more when I try it out live.

   One thing I do want to add.  I did find the Low Cut Filter on the Key source channel Does effect the channel it is used on.  If you have a snare that has a peak at 3k and you use that for the gates side chain filter you can go to the Key Source channel and bring the Low Cut Filter up to 400 hz to keep the bass drum or low toms out of it.  I didn't notice a big difference doing this but it may help someone.

Douglas R. Allen


 
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Jean-Pierre Coetzee

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Re: M32 - X32 Noise Gate Look ahead setup. (Renamed)
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2020, 12:01:15 pm »

I tried it out on kick drum this weekend. I must say I enjoy the results. I'm in the delay mics to OH camp but never delay the kick drum. Honestly people who say they want to natural sound should be delaying since not delaying is listening to the comb-filtered sound from the phase alignment, or lack thereof.

Really helped out with a troublesome kick drum. The moment you mentioned it I know how you would implement it, just haven't even considered it in a live situation.
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: M32 - X32 Noise Gate Look ahead setup. (Renamed)
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2020, 05:13:42 pm »

I tried it out on kick drum this weekend. I must say I enjoy the results. I'm in the delay mics to OH camp but never delay the kick drum. Honestly people who say they want to natural sound should be delaying since not delaying is listening to the comb-filtered sound from the phase alignment, or lack thereof.

Really helped out with a troublesome kick drum. The moment you mentioned it I know how you would implement it, just haven't even considered it in a live situation.

Yes, my thought exactly. If your going to add delay to the Kick, Snare and Tom microphones anyway to get them in alignment with the overheads and you have some extra channels to use as a Key Source then you can have look ahead gates are have great attack sound as well. Glad it worked for you. I have yet to try it out live but really like what I'm hearing in the X-Live tracks from the last show I recorded.

Douglas R. Allen
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brian maddox

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Re: M32 - X32 Noise Gate Look ahead setup. (Renamed)
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2020, 07:58:01 pm »

This same idea can be used with compressors to reduce some of the "pumping" sound that comes from the compressor catching up to the initial transient.  I've used it even in corporate situations to improve the response of Q and A mics since the participants are often all over the place with how close they put the mic to their mouth.

Like anything, a little goes a long way.  Once you start trying to get past 10 milliseconds or so or channel delay, it can start to get weird.  But there's lots of wiggle room in there for experimentation.
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John P. Farrell

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Re: M32 - X32 Noise Gate Look ahead setup. (Renamed)
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2020, 10:35:09 pm »

In this same vein I use triggers on the toms to key the gates of the drums.  Much more accurate than keying via frequency and easy to implement if you have the extra channels.  I delay the drums to the overheads as well. 

JF
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: M32 - X32 Noise Gate Look ahead setup. (Renamed)
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2020, 04:18:00 am »

This same idea can be used with compressors to reduce some of the "pumping" sound that comes from the compressor catching up to the initial transient.  I've used it even in corporate situations to improve the response of Q and A mics since the participants are often all over the place with how close they put the mic to their mouth.

Like anything, a little goes a long way.  Once you start trying to get past 10 milliseconds or so or channel delay, it can start to get weird.  But there's lots of wiggle room in there for experimentation.

   Thanks for mentioning this. ( Now how did I miss this.... ??? ) If a person sets up a compressor just for peak stops and used the Source Channel to Key this compressor the compressor will duck just a few ms before the snare's sound as an example will reach it. Look ahead compression to control peaks. With some release time adjustment I can see this freeing up some compressor plugin's I am using up now. I have a few ms on the channel anyway so I'll have to see how the compressor response as well. Looks like I have another project to try this afternoon.

Thanks;
Douglas R. Allen
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Re: M32 - X32 Noise Gate Look ahead setup. (Renamed)
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2020, 04:18:00 am »


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