Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Mark Norgren]

I guess I am a Hobbyist, non-competing, decent gear (Midas,QSC), weekend warrior, insurance and production company, that just does sound for MY band.  I am serious about sound and TONE.  I am a guitarist that takes the mix of my band pretty seriously.  I should also mention that I'm close to 60 years old and would never post anything without doing some searches for answers prior to posting a new thread.  I might be confused, curious, or need clarification?

I joined this forum because of the expertise that seemed to be here to assist and discuss the art of live sound.  I felt like I got my hand slapped on another post I made a couple of days ago.  I am a member of a few other forums and have gotten to be friends with people all over the world that share common interests.  Friends help each other.  I'm not here to take jobs from other companies, or steal trade secrets, or be a pain in the ass to anyone.  I don't have all the answers or claim to have a lot expertise in this area.  For the most part, I have been welcomed and learned a lot from from reading here and being a part of a few threads.  I may have even contributed in some cases?

It sounds like "Hobbyists" need to stick to this area.  Possibly moderators could move threads here if they feel they are out of place or too elementary for the pro side.  I am here to get along and learn a few things.  For the second time in three days, I apologize if someone takes offense to these comments, but let's try to all get along.  This is not politics we are talking about.  Carry on.

[Tim McCulloch]

I've never forgotten that I started out much like many of the "weekend warriors" - I built my first PA with money I saved from my day job (one I hated so much I was grateful when I got laid off).  I was the guy that priced my work too low to pay for catastrophic failures, had clients unwilling or unable to pay more, and after several frustrating years sold off most of my gear, doubled down on accounting and business classes and began to manage other people's shops.

Perhaps I'm re-living those memories as an old guy wanting to retire in the next few years, or perhaps I see so much of my prior situations that I'm throwing up red flags and offing unsolicited advice... and it's up to the reader here at PSW to decide if my comments are worth their time or if they wish to engage with anything I write.

IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR YOU TO REPEAT THE MISTAKES OF YOUR ELDERS.  And really, that's what advice is all about.  Consider the things that worked and carefully examine those which did not.  If it doesn't apply to your situation you've still learned something.

In the end, splitting hares (sorry, Bugs Bunny) over what amount to trivial differences in performance is probably what Scott and others find irritating.  Frankly, other than features and a very small number of actual performance differences, most loudspeakers, amplifiers and other devices are vastly more similar than they are different *within a given price bracket*.

For those that are pursuing this as a quasi-audiophile venture - and yes, I understand wanting to have quality audio as I have to listen to it, too - feel free.  The reality is that you're seeking a *subjective opinion* from multiple users, most of whom have not directly compared, in the same space at the same time with the same audition program material - the devices being asked about.  Factor in some confirmation bias (usually everyone likes what they ended up buying) and these exercises are mostly air.  After a few decades directly involved in the biz, this will become clearer to you.

I'm not anti-hobby, nor do I think being a weekend warrior is a bad thing.  Ditto for bands running their own sound.  I've been there, done that and have not forgotten.  What I hope to influence is making smart money decisions that advance the goal of the end use of the audio system, and less so about finding that last 0.10dB of something.

I hope that's clear.  If not I have another 260,000 words in my vocabulary, perhaps some of them will convey better my intentions.

[Brian Jojade]

In the West we have a long and honorable tradition of hobbyists and do-it-yourselfers (maybe once known as "gentleman scientists") some of whom are able to contribute to the art because they are NOT under the constraint of running a business.

That right there is where we are going to have a problem.  When there are people in the business that don't care about profit, but put themselves into the market, it draws down the market for everyone else.  It's an artificial increase in supply. Basic economics.

There aren't a ton of businesses that require the kind of investment at production that have such a high number of part timers doing the job who subsidize the business with other income.  And no, you don't have to be full time to run a business profitably.  But when you've got suppliers selling product below actual cost of production, it certainly does hurt others in the market that want to make it work.  Does it impact top dollar high end production? No, not much.  But small to midsized shops it certainly does.  When you've got a small production that should cost $2k, but someone wants to do it on the side for $500, the customer would likely take the cash savings, ripping the money from the actual company.  The next time the customer is looking for production, they might find that hobbyist got bored and left the business.  Instead of now spending the $2K, they simply go and find another hobbyist to do the work.  Yes, it does happen, and quite regularly.

[Jay Marr]

I'm going to assume that I'm partially responsible for this thread - so apologies.

I am a hobbiest (I assume) as I run sound for my weekend warrior cover band.
I LOVE having great gear, I get a ton of satisfaction when I walk out and hear the band sound great (well, as good as we're going to get).
I also love talking shop and learning about small product differences that pro's like Scott and Tim probably cringe to talk about.

I have made tons of small incremental changes (some could be considered lateral), and I don't regret a single one of them.  I love the journey.

I am also a touch OCD and could be described as having more money than brains (and not that I have a lot of money, but likely just very little brains).  I also just enjoy trying different products...so wrap all that up into me liking to talk and read about gear comparisons.  Probably enjoy it more than most.

Just some insight into why I ask a lot of questions.  I always want to hear what professionals think about equipment (even the small differences).

[Jamin Lynch]

I do live sound for fun, but I don't do it for free. It has to be fun first. If it's no longer fun then I don't do it. Making money just makes it more "funner".  The pay scale in my area is pretty low, but I try to make as much as I can when I can. Some gigs pay well and some don't, but in the end it all seems to work out.

I have one band in particular that I work with plus a couple of others when my primary isn't playing. We are all friends and have a good time making music and putting on a good show. The applause after a great song always puts a smile on my face.

I do take everything very seriously. The quality of the equipment, the setup, the mix and the overall show package even though it's on a "small" scale. I try to make it as though you are attending a much larger show.

For me ROI is less as important than the fun factor.

Just to add: The IRS may frown on folks who take rights offs and call themselves hobbyists. 

[Justice C. Bigler]

Some days I wish I was just a hobbyist, doing this stuff for fun as a side gig.

I'm a full time professional, but own very little gear. A hand full of mid level mics, some stereo bars for recording, a hand full of audio interfaces for various uses. On my tour, the only gear that I own that I'm using is my OctaCapture and laptop and Smaart license. (And a couple of sound consoles and reference monitors that I'm not currently using.)

In another life I would have been happy as a hobbyist running sound for bands and community theatre as a side gig.

[Robert Lunceford]

You all should be directing your anger at the manufacturers of affordably priced audio gear. They are the ones that have enabled the masses to purchase pro level gear.
If the only options to buy equipment were through companies such as Meyer, d&b audiotechnik, L’Acoustic, Fulcrum, etc. - There would be far fewer weekend warriors.
How many “pro” companies are using the lower priced equipment themselves?
By buying this equipment yourselves, and supporting this segment of the market, you are contributing to the problem you complain about, especially the many sound companies that then rent out this lower priced gear to the general public. Renting equipment to the general public is far worse than the weekend warrior who actually knows how to use the gear.
 It is difficult to have your cake and eat it too.

[Keith Broughton]

You all should be directing your anger at the manufacturers of affordably priced audio gear. They are the ones that have enabled the masses to purchase pro level gear.
If the only options to buy equipment were through companies such as Meyer, d&b audiotechnik, L’Acoustic, Fulcrum, etc. - There would be far fewer weekend warriors.
How many “pro” companies are using the lower priced equipment themselves?
By buying this equipment yourselves, and supporting this segment of the market, you are contributing to the problem you complain about, especially the many sound companies that then rent out this lower priced gear to the general public. Renting equipment to the general public is far worse than the weekend warrior who actually knows how to use the gear.
 It is difficult to have your cake and eat it too.

Then, by extension, we need to rail against car manufacturers for making cars affordable and causing traffic jams.
Not a particular compelling argument, Robert.

[Robert Lunceford]

Then, by extension, we need to rail against car manufacturers for making cars affordable and causing traffic jams.
Not a particular compelling argument, Robert.

non sequitur

[Steve-White]

You all should be directing your anger at the manufacturers of affordably priced audio gear. They are the ones that have enabled the masses to purchase pro level gear.
If the only options to buy equipment were through companies such as Meyer, d&b audiotechnik, L’Acoustic, Fulcrum, etc. - There would be far fewer weekend warriors.
How many “pro” companies are using the lower priced equipment themselves?
By buying this equipment yourselves, and supporting this segment of the market, you are contributing to the problem you complain about, especially the many sound companies that then rent out this lower priced gear to the general public. Renting equipment to the general public is far worse than the weekend warrior who actually knows how to use the gear.
 It is difficult to have your cake and eat it too.

Well stated and really confirms that this thread is a "circular" argument.  Ok for a discussion, that gets walked away from with no bruising or hard feelings.

I wasn't going to get involved, but this one pulled me in.

As many have done, I too started out of my garage, 40+ years ago - added a second turntable and some lights to my home stereo and viola another mobile DJ was born.  Today things are vastly different.  Went through the "ankle biter" phase, which lasted a little over 10 years.  Now incorporated and blah blah blah with the associated overhead and capitol investment, liability - have a house today, vehicle paid for - would like to keep it all.

Apple started from a garage in Cupertino, CA - Walt Disney was turned down 300+ times with his concept and business model by financiers.

One thing I learned coming up in the business is to work with others when possible, not against them.  There are always those out there that take the "against" path.  Example, the DJ's I hire to represent my operation - back in the day, I used hired gun DJ's for weddings and clubs as I could only be at one place at a time and was growing.  I only have one rule for the DJ's "don't card my jobs" - when it's my show, they represent me.  However, I will support them with their enterprise as well, by doing equipment setups for their personal shows.  Yes, it's a delicate thing to manage, but there needs to be that level of trust and I help them along and they help me.  Have fired a few as expected.

Over the years, I have encountered arrogance of "big time" tour, arena and fairgrounds show contractors with ego's larger than their equipment inventory and guys starting up that had little to no gear.  Arrogance and cockiness from the union tech's as well.  Also, can tell you my first arena sound/light job, the union guys (IATSE Selland Arena - Fresno, CA) helped me out and could have sent me home with my tail between my legs with grounding concerns on the light trees.

We all have a story, we all started somewhere.  Nobody puts down $250K upwards on day one without any knowledge of this business - only a fool would do that.  Gotta learn it somewhere first, or grow as you learn and learn as you grow.

Gotta share this story.  The "ego" I mentioned and some jerkoff that was one of the "against" camp.  I was talking to the manager at a music store back 1981/1982, when I was just getting going good in the "ankle biter" phase of club sound and general PA, growing from the DJ only place I started in 1978.

This jerkoff walks up with his big head and starts blabbering about not "even entertaining" taking his gear out for what I charged.  Fact, his daddy was a cattle rancher and recently invested $1M into son's business - good on him and they did well with it, still in business today.  But to walk around crapping on others is just not the way to roll in my book.  He asked me if I "would like to buy it" (his business) and said "I'll even throw in the corvette".  I paused, looked him in the eye, with the store manager standing there and asked if "the ego" goes along with the deal.  He got a stupid look on his face.

Not to just bash the dude, he had his good moments too and maybe has grown a bit more humble over the years - dunno, haven't seen him since the late 80's.  Sitting at shows where he was the prime and I had something onstage that I was supporting (most times a DJ), he schooled me in the business and schooled me well.  I don't know if he even knew what was happening or not, maybe he did - maybe he was just showing off on how much he knew - not saying arrogance there - I really think he was schooling me at times - intentionally.  Thanks Mike.  I can understand his "protectionist" attitude at times as he had to compete and it's a dog eat dog world out there - can be tough at times.

One on side it can be argued the competition from underdogs makes things tough for the more legit or established shops.  That's true, it does - however, the more gear a manufacturer sells, the more gear a store sells, drives the overall prices downwards industry wide.  Profits from the MI assembly line help support the high-end pro equipment manufacture.  So again, cause and effect.  It also gives a pool of technicians with some kind of experience to draw from.  And I know from personal experience which ones get union cards in both IATSE & IBEW - when I took my IBEW exam the test administrator flat out said "we love taking the best guys out of the non-represented shops" - same for IATSE.  That's the way it should be, when I need stage hands I want experience and know where to get it.

We all have our story, we all came up as we came up.  This can be argued all day and all night to no end - it's a closed loop eco system - work with others.

[ProSoundWeb Community]