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[frank kayser]

Hi folks,
All I know of Dante can (possibly) half-fill a thimble.


Dante, as I understand, is the gold-standard of interoperability, yes?


I'm going to assume that that interoperability does not extend to one manufacturer's stage box working with a different manufacturer, due possibly to there being much proprietary handshaking between the console and the stagebox that Dante does not translate.


So is it safe to characterize Dante as interoperable at the "signal" transport level.


As an example, call it Behringer/Midas family interconnect.  The "normal" expansion connection from an x32r is AES50.  So if I wanted to add a stage box to via Dante, besides a Dante card in the x32 expansion slot, what would work? 


frank

[brian maddox]

Hi folks,
All I know of Dante can (possibly) half-fill a thimble.


Dante, as I understand, is the gold-standard of interoperability, yes?


I'm going to assume that that interoperability does not extend to one manufacturer's stage box working with a different manufacturer, due possibly to there being much proprietary handshaking between the console and the stagebox that Dante does not translate.


So is it safe to characterize Dante as interoperable at the "signal" transport level.


As an example, call it Behringer/Midas family interconnect.  The "normal" expansion connection from an x32r is AES50.  So if I wanted to add a stage box to via Dante, besides a Dante card in the x32 expansion slot, what would work? 


frank

Any Dante device will pass audio to any other Dante device.  What it WON'T pass [in most cases] is Mic Pre adjustment info.  Controlling Mic Pres is still a manufacturer specific protocol and that's where interoperability between manufacturers over Dante becomes tricky.

To speak to your last question from personal experience, i have used a variety of yamaha RIO boxes with X/M32s with Dante cards without issue.  You just have to use another device [like a computer] to adjust the Head Amps.

[frank kayser]

Any Dante device will pass audio to any other Dante device.  What it WON'T pass [in most cases] is Mic Pre adjustment info.  Controlling Mic Pres is still a manufacturer specific protocol and that's where interoperability between manufacturers over Dante becomes tricky.

To speak to your last question from personal experience, i have used a variety of yamaha RIO boxes with X/M32s with Dante cards without issue.  You just have to use another device [like a computer] to adjust the Head Amps.

Thanks, Brian.  That is kinda what my feeble mind imagined.


An add on question: Dante is a licensed protocol, and AES50 is open source.  Music Group has embraced AES50.
Are they functionally equivalent?
<edit> A bit more reading, AES50 is a frame-based point-to-point protocol, rather than a packet-based protocol.  Packets can arrive out-of-order, and requires some buffering to reassemble "the message" in the proper order.  Packets can also be directed via a switch.  AES50 cannot run through a switch; needs to be routed.  Functionally equivalent to Dante? No, but still offers some of the same functionality.

As Midas and Behringer are all part of Music Group, and Klark Technic is too (KT bought AES50 in 2007 and developed it into a proprietarily protocol) , I believe all these interoperate completely.
Anyone else using AES50 other than Music Group?

[Brian Jojade]

The only real overlap of functionality between AES50 and Dante is that they are both digital ways to transport multiple channels of audio.  The implementation is VASTLY different.

AES50, as you said is point to point.  Connecting stage box to ONE mixer.  If you want the signal in more than one mixer, it needs to be routed out of the first mixer to the 2nd.  Dante is a network protocol.  You can use Dante to send signal to MULTIPLE mixers if you so desire. 

AES50 is an easier configuration.  Plug it in, pick a device to be the world clock and route.  Features such as pre-amp control are available with no other configuration. AFAIK, Music group is the only one using it at this point.

Dante, being a network protocol means the data can live alongside other data.  Theoretically, pre-amp control could be done over ethernet at the same time.  However, there's no official standard for that as far as I'm aware of.  Interoperability is simply the audio signal being able to be passed.

Many brands of devices do have Dante as an option, making that a more flexible choice for routing audio.  It's super handy in a building distribution system. If you've got a mic in another room that you need tied to your system, it's as simple as configuring it. Since you don't have to bounce through devices to get there, it's fairly simple, as long as your network is up to the task.

[frank kayser]

The only real overlap of functionality between AES50 and Dante is that they are both digital ways to transport multiple channels of audio.  The implementation is VASTLY different.

AES50, as you said is point to point.  Connecting stage box to ONE mixer.  If you want the signal in more than one mixer, it needs to be routed out of the first mixer to the 2nd.  Dante is a network protocol.  You can use Dante to send signal to MULTIPLE mixers if you so desire. 

AES50 is an easier configuration.  Plug it in, pick a device to be the world clock and route.  Features such as pre-amp control are available with no other configuration. AFAIK, Music group is the only one using it at this point.

Dante, being a network protocol means the data can live alongside other data.  Theoretically, pre-amp control could be done over ethernet at the same time.  However, there's no official standard for that as far as I'm aware of.  Interoperability is simply the audio signal being able to be passed.

Many brands of devices do have Dante as an option, making that a more flexible choice for routing audio.  It's super handy in a building distribution system. If you've got a mic in another room that you need tied to your system, it's as simple as configuring it. Since you don't have to bounce through devices to get there, it's fairly simple, as long as your network is up to the task.

Thanks again, Brian!  Your explanation, your Dante example, along with a Music Group video demonstrating AES50 one signal to multiple consoles drove the point home. 
The thimble is now 3/4 full.


frank

[Chris Hindle]

Thanks again, Brian!  Your explanation, your Dante example, along with a Music Group video demonstrating AES50 one signal to multiple consoles drove the point home. 
The thimble is now 3/4 full.


frank

Ya, but it's still just a thimble......
Me, on the other hand, haven't even got a thimble yet 
Interesting times we live in.....
Chris.

[Dan Mortensen]

...a Music Group video demonstrating AES50 one signal to multiple consoles...

Link, please?

Thanks.

[frank kayser]

Link, please?

Thanks.

This.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjJjR2J_aSg
Hope this helps.

[Brian Jojade]

This.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjJjR2J_aSg
Hope this helps.

That's not splitting the AES signal to multiple consoles.  That's routing the signal into one console, then out of that console to the next.  Turn off the console, and your signal will stop.

Yes, you can do it, and do it multiple times if necessary, but it's still a point to point solution.

It would be neat if they offered an AES50 splitter, however that would get tricky since AES50 is signal going in both directions.  Something that offered more than 2 AES50 ports with routing configuration would be handy.  ie, if the M32 core had 4 AES50 ports on it, it would be amazeballs.

[Tim Weaver]

There are some brand-agnostic mic-pre's which then connect to a Dante network. Like this focusrite unit.

The preamp control is through a computer which is on the same network as the Device. They are meant to give you input options in a big studio or maybe a campus-wide situation. "I need to record the school choir at the administration building" so I take this device, plug it into my dante network and it can send 8 channels back to the school's recording studio in the music building.

This is an expensive option to build a snake from. I imagine if it catches on we'll see more, cheaper options in the future. AtteroTech already make some 2x2 devices that aren't crazy expensive.

[ProSoundWeb Community]