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Author Topic: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs  (Read 821 times)

Kirk Medeiros

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Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« on: December 19, 2019, 02:56:55 pm »

Hi All, I have a brewery tasting room, we took over the location that was previously a winery.  Box, flat walls with concrete floor and 15' high metal finished ceiling.  Needless to say it gets loud pretty quick.

We have 7 Sound Advance FMS860B speakers daisy chained to the receiver.  I am currently away from the bar so I can't give exact measurements of the run of wire from the receiver to the last speaker, but i did attach a floor plan with the red boxes representing the speakers with the red line representing the wire configuration.

I have a Onkyo TX-NR575 receiver.  We have the wire connected to the front right connection of the receiver.

We have to have the receiver volume at 90 out of 100 to have decent sound, we use a digital jukebox that we can turn volume up further on busy nights.  The sound is heavily distorted with any song that has bass.  I have a feeling we need an amplifier to boost power to the speakers in order to have decent sound. 

I've never been able to clearly understand electricty and its affects on sound systems.  Really looking for some help.  As a brewery owner, dont have a lot of money to redo the whole thing but maybe rewiring or adding an amp can be doable.

Thanks all.  I attached cuts from the speaker and receiver manuals and a footprint of the tasting room.
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Kirk Medeiros

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2019, 02:59:49 pm »

Files were too large here is the Speaker info
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Kirk Medeiros

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2019, 03:00:22 pm »

Files were too large here is the Speaker info

Speaker info number 2
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2019, 03:00:54 pm »

Files were too large here is the Speaker info

Per the rule at the top of the page and when you signed up you must use your real, verifiable name as your display name.

The mods will lock the thread until you comply.

Thanks
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Kirk Medeiros

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2019, 03:06:02 pm »

Per the rule at the top of the page and when you signed up you must use your real, verifiable name as your display name.

The mods will lock the thread until you comply.

Thanks

Thanks didn't know that.  Fixed
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Riley Casey

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2019, 03:37:24 pm »

The type of amplifier you're using ( and most low cost amps )  can only have two speakers connected to each channel before it starts to distort. Rewire the speakers such that you have a single speaker connected to each of the seven amp channels the spec sheet seems to say that you have and your should be good.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 03:39:37 pm by Riley Casey »
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Dave Garoutte

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2019, 04:00:31 pm »

The type of amplifier you're using ( and most low cost amps )  can only have two speakers connected to each channel before it starts to distort. Rewire the speakers such that you have a single speaker connected to each of the seven amp channels the spec sheet seems to say that you have and your should be good.
One place says 'both channels' and another place says 7 channels. :o
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2019, 05:55:58 pm »

We have 7 Sound Advance FMS860B speakers daisy chained to the receiver.  We have the wire connected to the front right connection of the receiver.

That is not going to work, you essentially have a dead short attached to the amp assuming all those speakers are in parallel... that is what most people refer to as "daisy chained". That receiver has a pair of main outputs and a second pair on another zone output which could be useful here, the surround outputs probably aren't really useful as it is not likely the receiver can drive all of them with an unprocessed full range output signal and even of it can(I have a Pioneer AVR that can do 6-ch fullrange), it won't deliver anywhere near the rated power into all of those outputs at the same time.
With those speakers being 4ohm minimum you need to wire pairs in series and connect those pairs to each of the main and zone2 outputs, then things should work normally. You can put the one odd speaker on a channel by itself but it will be louder than the others, a small balance adjustment on the receiver should fix this however.  This will require somebody that knows the difference between series and parallel wiring and also will require a lot more wire than what you have now, best to hire an AV contractor of some sort.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 06:06:43 pm by Paul G. OBrien »
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Kirk Medeiros

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2019, 06:35:34 pm »

That is not going to work, you essentially have a dead short attached to the amp assuming all those speakers are in parallel... that is what most people refer to as "daisy chained". That receiver has a pair of main outputs and a second pair on another zone output which could be useful here, the surround outputs probably aren't really useful as it is not likely the receiver can drive all of them with an unprocessed full range output signal and even of it can(I have a Pioneer AVR that can do 6-ch fullrange), it won't deliver anywhere near the rated power into all of those outputs at the same time.
With those speakers being 4ohm minimum you need to wire pairs in series and connect those pairs to each of the main and zone2 outputs, then things should work normally. You can put the one odd speaker on a channel by itself but it will be louder than the others, a small balance adjustment on the receiver should fix this however.  This will require somebody that knows the difference between series and parallel wiring and also will require a lot more wire than what you have now, best to hire an AV contractor of some sort.

If I were to wire all 7 speakers on all 7 channels of my receiver and choose
"All Stereo" - This mode is ideal for background music. Stereo sound is played through the surround speakers as well as the front
speakers, creating a stereo image.

or "Full Mono" - In this mode, all speakers output the same sound in mono, so the sound you hear is the same regardless of where
you are within the listening room.

Yes a lot of wiring but seems like for background music this may be the cheapest option.  its about 320' of 14/16 gauge wires
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2019, 09:04:12 pm »

Go with the mono option, stereo has no value in this scenario.
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Lee Douglas

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2019, 09:29:20 pm »

I'm modifying my original post (struck-through below), for clarity.

The correct way to do this would be to get a 70V mixer/amp.  This would allow you to daisy chain your speakers, as they have transformers built into them to do exactly this.


Make sure that your speakers are set to 8 ohms per page two in the installation manual.  I'm guessing that they are not currently set that way, or you might have burned up your amp.  The correct way to do this would be to get a 70V mixer/amp.  This would allow you to daisy chain your speakers, as they have transformers built into them to do exactly this.  Another way of skinning this cat would be to put impedance matched volume controls on each pair of speakers.  This would require home running each speaker to your amp, but would allow you to adjust the volume to each pair.  Handy, but probably not necessary in this scenario.  Make sure it's impedance matching and has amp protection.  Something like this:

https://www.osdaudio.com/products/speaker-selector/volume-control-selectors/ssvc4.html
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 08:21:59 pm by Lee Douglas »
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Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2019, 08:32:56 pm »

Go with the mono option, stereo has no value in this scenario.
Quote
I've never been able to clearly understand electricty and its affects on sound systems.  Really looking for some help.  As a brewery owner, dont have a lot of money to redo the whole thing but maybe rewiring or adding an amp can be doable.
I can see that. Whatever possessed you to use that "man cave surround sound AV receiver" for this?? For less than half the cost you could have done it right. Those speakers can be used with a 70V system, so since you are amenable to buying another amp, get yourself a commercial 70V mixer/amp to replace that thing.  It will have a 70V output so you can leave your wiring as is. I would get a 200W amp and set that switch in each speaker to 70V/15 watts.

You owe me a beer.

-Hal

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Kirk Medeiros

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2019, 06:27:37 pm »

I can see that. Whatever possessed you to use that "man cave surround sound AV receiver" for this?? For less than half the cost you could have done it right. Those speakers can be used with a 70V system, so since you are amenable to buying another amp, get yourself a commercial 70V mixer/amp to replace that thing.  It will have a 70V output so you can leave your wiring as is. I would get a 200W amp and set that switch in each speaker to 70V/15 watts.

You owe me a beer.

-Hal

LOL yes I do!! Looks like the 300W amp Lee Douglas linked should work?  When we moved into the location we have, these speakers were existing from the previous tenant (a winery) they took their receiver and amp.  We had a best buy rep out to set us up with tvs and he threw in the receiver, saying its all we would need.  Apparently not.

Thanks for the help.  As green as I am on this.  Is that 300W amp Lee Douglas suggested all I need?  Do i still connect to the Onkyo receiver or can that go away?  I may be asking too much, but if there is anyway you can link me other suggestions with a wire diagram so i know how this is all hooked up.  I am thinking about purchasing a wireless mic that i can connect to the receiver for when we do events and raffle giveaways.

Thanks again
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Scott Holtzman

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2019, 07:05:12 pm »

LOL yes I do!! Looks like the 300W amp Lee Douglas linked should work?  When we moved into the location we have, these speakers were existing from the previous tenant (a winery) they took their receiver and amp.  We had a best buy rep out to set us up with tvs and he threw in the receiver, saying its all we would need.  Apparently not.

Thanks for the help.  As green as I am on this.  Is that 300W amp Lee Douglas suggested all I need?  Do i still connect to the Onkyo receiver or can that go away?  I may be asking too much, but if there is anyway you can link me other suggestions with a wire diagram so i know how this is all hooked up.  I am thinking about purchasing a wireless mic that i can connect to the receiver for when we do events and raffle giveaways.

Thanks again

You should buy the amp and mic from a local integrator and let them wire it up for you.  That way everything will work.  You have to verify your wiring is parallel and make sure speakers set for 70volt tap. 

Yes, you will still need a source for the music.
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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Lee Douglas

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2019, 08:18:45 pm »

LOL yes I do!! Looks like the 300W amp Lee Douglas linked should work?

NO!  The link I posted was a work around, not an amplifier and not recommended.  Sorry for the confusion. 

If I were doing this, I would purchase a Bogen GS-250 from a reputable installer and have them install it, verifying the speaker wiring while they were doing it.  This would also make adding a wireless mic a snap.

https://www.bogen.com/products/pdfs/mixerampspdfs/GS-SeriesDs.pdf
« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 08:25:04 pm by Lee Douglas »
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2019, 08:08:57 am »

Do you want this system to be just for background music or run at foreground party music levels?

A foreground party music system can always be turned down when only background music is needed but don't expect a background music system to hold together when cranked up for party music.

The Bogen amp mention would be fine for background but not so great for cranked up party music.

70 volt distributed systems can sound really good, you just need real amps and processing to run them.

Don't expect the speakers you have to shake the building with low frequency, they should be high pass filtered at at least 60hz to help then sound cleaner when pushed hard. If running them as a 70 volt system I would bump up the high pass to at least 70hz.

« Last Edit: December 24, 2019, 07:30:03 pm by Mike Caldwell »
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Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC

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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2019, 02:53:12 pm »

We had a best buy rep out to set us up with tvs and he threw in the receiver, saying its all we would need.  Apparently not.
I had a Best Buy rep buy me some beer once. Worst beer I ever had.  ;D
-Hal
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Re: Daisy Chain Speakers and Receiver needs
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2019, 02:53:12 pm »


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