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[Todd Latham]

Before you ask, yes I have scrolled through over 40 pages and used the search feature, but did not find what I was looking for...

In the past year I have become the pastor of a small town church with 100 members.  The sound system they have is aging and has been replaced piecemeal.  Recently one of the overhead speakers that is in a box of 2 has begun to crackle and only have highs/tinny sound.  I do not know what type of speakers are enclosed in that box and noone can remember.  The congregation would like to replace them with something newer that also provides better coverage of the sanctuary.

Our sanctuary seating area is 41ft long by 45ft wide and approx 20ft high ceiling.  We have 3 rows of wooden pews (L, C, R) with padded seating.  There are 5 large stained glass windows on each side.  The stage is an additional 9ft long, with a choir alcove behind it.

Current gear is a Allen Heath QU-24 digital board (overkill for this small church but it was purchased before I got here by a special offering thinking that would help fix the sound), a QD-4960 quad amp with 240w per at 4ohms.  There are 2 choir speakers JBL CBT 50LA.

Other equipment that is here but not used is a dp424 studio management system and a DBX DriverackPA2 speaker management system.

We have a piano mic, a pulpit mic, 1 lavaleer mic, 1 wired handheld for solos, and 2 choir mics.  We also have an organ that is not wired into the system but has its own set of speakers recessed into the from wall behind the stage and a cd player for accompaniment tracks.

Currently the volunteer sound operator controls the volume via the amp because nothing is quite wired right and he does not know how to use the 'new' sound board.

The idea is to completely revamp our sound area (remove a pew, add in a counter-top, rewire/reconfigure) and at the same time to replace the offending speakers that are flown overhead.

So, let me thank you for reading thus far.  My overall question is about what is your reccomendation/opinion for replacing our centrally located overhead speakers.  I have seen postings about line arrays that allow for a spread from front row to back but am unsure about beam width...  110deg or 140deg?   I also am unsure of the difference between a "variable dispersion line array speaker" from TOA for $1400 and a single JBL line array speaker for $1400

Cost is ABSOLUTELY a factor but I also dont want to overkill our space like they did when they bought the sound board 2 years ago.

Thank you in advance.

[Taylor Hall]

Honestly talking to an integrator is going to be your best bet. There are myriad variables that go into not only selecting a cabinet, but also placement and aiming that we simply can't take into account from behind a keyboard.

There are numerous companies out there that provide solutions for HOWs, auditoriums and the like which can point you in the right direction. Danley comes to mind near the top of the list, they probably have a partner in your area who can also show you options from other companies as well. Try reaching out to them, or seeing if there is a well established integrator near you.

[Nathan Riddle]

Before you ask, yes I have scrolled through over 40 pages and used the search feature, but did not find what I was looking for...

In the past year I have become the pastor of a small town church with 100 members.  The sound system they have is aging and has been replaced piecemeal.  Recently one of the overhead speakers that is in a box of 2 has begun to crackle and only have highs/tinny sound.  I do not know what type of speakers are enclosed in that box and noone can remember.  The congregation would like to replace them with something newer that also provides better coverage of the sanctuary.

Our sanctuary seating area is 41ft long by 45ft wide and approx 20ft high ceiling.  We have 3 rows of wooden pews (L, C, R) with padded seating.  There are 5 large stained glass windows on each side.  The stage is an additional 9ft long, with a choir alcove behind it.

Current gear is a Allen Heath QU-24 digital board (overkill for this small church but it was purchased before I got here by a special offering thinking that would help fix the sound), a QD-4960 quad amp with 240w per at 4ohms.  There are 2 choir speakers JBL CBT 50LA.

Other equipment that is here but not used is a dp424 studio management system and a DBX DriverackPA2 speaker management system.

We have a piano mic, a pulpit mic, 1 lavaleer mic, 1 wired handheld for solos, and 2 choir mics.  We also have an organ that is not wired into the system but has its own set of speakers recessed into the from wall behind the stage and a cd player for accompaniment tracks.

Currently the volunteer sound operator controls the volume via the amp because nothing is quite wired right and he does not know how to use the 'new' sound board.

The idea is to completely revamp our sound area (remove a pew, add in a counter-top, rewire/reconfigure) and at the same time to replace the offending speakers that are flown overhead.

So, let me thank you for reading thus far.  My overall question is about what is your reccomendation/opinion for replacing our centrally located overhead speakers.  I have seen postings about line arrays that allow for a spread from front row to back but am unsure about beam width...  110deg or 140deg?   I also am unsure of the difference between a "variable dispersion line array speaker" from TOA for $1400 and a single JBL line array speaker for $1400

Cost is ABSOLUTELY a factor but I also dont want to overkill our space like they did when they bought the sound board 2 years ago.

Thank you in advance.

I must say this is the most well thought out post I have seen for a long while, thanks!
I think it had something to do with reading 40 pages


A pic or two would be helpful. Room and Booth perhaps.
Where does the first pew start?

Depending on things a couple Martin CDD12's might do the trick. It's a general guess; don't run away with it and implement it.

You'll need probably 3k minimum to do things right/well and probably 5k to do things better.

[Scott Holtzman]

Before you ask, yes I have scrolled through over 40 pages and used the search feature, but did not find what I was looking for...

In the past year I have become the pastor of a small town church with 100 members.  The sound system they have is aging and has been replaced piecemeal.  Recently one of the overhead speakers that is in a box of 2 has begun to crackle and only have highs/tinny sound.  I do not know what type of speakers are enclosed in that box and noone can remember.  The congregation would like to replace them with something newer that also provides better coverage of the sanctuary.

Our sanctuary seating area is 41ft long by 45ft wide and approx 20ft high ceiling.  We have 3 rows of wooden pews (L, C, R) with padded seating.  There are 5 large stained glass windows on each side.  The stage is an additional 9ft long, with a choir alcove behind it.

Current gear is a Allen Heath QU-24 digital board (overkill for this small church but it was purchased before I got here by a special offering thinking that would help fix the sound), a QD-4960 quad amp with 240w per at 4ohms.  There are 2 choir speakers JBL CBT 50LA.

Other equipment that is here but not used is a dp424 studio management system and a DBX DriverackPA2 speaker management system.

We have a piano mic, a pulpit mic, 1 lavaleer mic, 1 wired handheld for solos, and 2 choir mics.  We also have an organ that is not wired into the system but has its own set of speakers recessed into the from wall behind the stage and a cd player for accompaniment tracks.

Currently the volunteer sound operator controls the volume via the amp because nothing is quite wired right and he does not know how to use the 'new' sound board.

The idea is to completely revamp our sound area (remove a pew, add in a counter-top, rewire/reconfigure) and at the same time to replace the offending speakers that are flown overhead.

So, let me thank you for reading thus far.  My overall question is about what is your reccomendation/opinion for replacing our centrally located overhead speakers.  I have seen postings about line arrays that allow for a spread from front row to back but am unsure about beam width...  110deg or 140deg?   I also am unsure of the difference between a "variable dispersion line array speaker" from TOA for $1400 and a single JBL line array speaker for $1400

Cost is ABSOLUTELY a factor but I also dont want to overkill our space like they did when they bought the sound board 2 years ago.

Thank you in advance.

If you read 40 pages of comments then you should have come across a line array discussion.  I will summarize, forget anything to do with a line array, you room is too small.  Line array speakers require an "array" 

That small a room a little center cluster is all you need.

Adjusting the sound level from the amp is nothing short of crazy,  they can't look at the board and see what fader changes each mic level, there is  a mute button, just mute the channels one at a time.  Aren't they labeled anyway?

If you don't know how you operate the board you should not be choosing speakers.  The best advice is to find some local help.  Where are you located? 

[Todd Latham]

I must say this is the most well thought out post I have seen for a long while, thanks!
I think it had something to do with reading 40 pages


A pic or two would be helpful. Room and Booth perhaps.
Where does the first pew start?

Depending on things a couple Martin CDD12's might do the trick. It's a general guess; don't run away with it and implement it.

You'll need probably 3k minimum to do things right/well and probably 5k to do things better.

[Todd Latham]

I must say this is the most well thought out post I have seen for a long while, thanks!
I think it had something to do with reading 40 pages


A pic or two would be helpful. Room and Booth perhaps.
Where does the first pew start?

Depending on things a couple Martin CDD12's might do the trick. It's a general guess; don't run away with it and implement it.

You'll need probably 3k minimum to do things right/well and probably 5k to do things better.

[Todd Latham]

If you read 40 pages of comments then you should have come across a line array discussion.  I will summarize, forget anything to do with a line array, you room is too small.  Line array speakers require an "array" 

That small a room a little center cluster is all you need.

Adjusting the sound level from the amp is nothing short of crazy,  they can't look at the board and see what fader changes each mic level, there is  a mute button, just mute the channels one at a time.  Aren't they labeled anyway?

If you don't know how you operate the board you should not be choosing speakers.  The best advice is to find some local help.  Where are you located?

I agree.  However, I, know how to use the soundboard having used an AH QU-32 at my last church, but it was a very different venue seating 850 in more of a wedge shape.

The current sound volunteer, however, is not using the board/mix/amps properly.  I know it, and want to introduce changes, but sadly people get their feelings hurt more often and more quickly in a church setting than anywhere else.  So, I'm taking baby steps and have been slowly talking about revamping our sound for a year now getting him ok with it.

I mentioned arrays because we had 2 at my previous church with 2 fills.  It was professionally installed and calibrated, which, we do not have the option of doing here. I brought up the array idea because of the TOA array type speakers I saw with its variable angle, able to easily add a sub and still hang it centrally but wanted some additional feedback.  And yes there was a topic or two but they focused on a large venue with a desire to push 104db, not really fitting for us.

We are between Columbia and Florence SC in a small town.  No one expects or wants to be blown out of the water, but everyone knows that it can be better than what we have.

Again, thanks in advance.

[Tim Weaver]

Just throwing this out there, but you could sell the XTA, the Driverack, and the Allen&Heath and buy yourself a nice powered speaker AND a small analog console+EQ that your volunteer would understand a little easier. You would probably come out about even money....

Something like a single Yamaha DZR12 should cover most if not all of your sanctuary. And for the Mixer I would suggest the Allan & Heath MixWizard. I know it's "too big" for your setup, but that desk is about the minimum I ever suggest people buying. It has features that are super useful to you even though you don't know it yet. Smaller desks concentrate on being small, not being useful.

[Mike Caldwell]

Not sure I would reconfigure the system from the ground up just to appease one volunteer.
Your system does need going through by someone who knows what there doing to properly configure it and you may have left over pieces to sell off!

Maybe the speaker could be brought back to life with replacement drivers.

...And also some proper training on the mixer operation.

[Dave Pluke]

Not sure I would reconfigure the system from the ground up just to appease one volunteer.
Your system does need going through by someone who knows what there doing to properly configure it and you may have left over pieces to sell off!

Maybe the speaker could be brought back to life with replacement drivers.

...And also some proper training on the mixer operation.

All good points.

@Todd - If you do reconfigure, you could easily mix the inputs you currently have, plus more in the future, with one of the surface-less rack-mount mixers.  My favorite is the Soundcraft Ui24R, but the Behringer X32 Rack and XR18 work well for many.  That and a wireless tablet is all the Sound Area/Equipment you'd need.  In fact, the rack itself could be "back stage", so the current Sound Area could be returned to the Congregation.

I also agree with Scott's flown center cluster recommendation.  A couple of 2 or 3-way units with 60 degree horns/wave guides, hung upside down (horn down) should cover your space without blasting the front pews or the comb filtering issues that speakers in each corner can cause.

Dave

[Scott Holtzman]

I agree.  However, I, know how to use the soundboard having used an AH QU-32 at my last church, but it was a very different venue seating 850 in more of a wedge shape.

The current sound volunteer, however, is not using the board/mix/amps properly.  I know it, and want to introduce changes, but sadly people get their feelings hurt more often and more quickly in a church setting than anywhere else.  So, I'm taking baby steps and have been slowly talking about revamping our sound for a year now getting him ok with it.

I mentioned arrays because we had 2 at my previous church with 2 fills.  It was professionally installed and calibrated, which, we do not have the option of doing here. I brought up the array idea because of the TOA array type speakers I saw with its variable angle, able to easily add a sub and still hang it centrally but wanted some additional feedback.  And yes there was a topic or two but they focused on a large venue with a desire to push 104db, not really fitting for us.

We are between Columbia and Florence SC in a small town.  No one expects or wants to be blown out of the water, but everyone knows that it can be better than what we have.

Again, thanks in advance.

I have worked in many churches, both as a hired hand and a volunteer.  I do appreciate the politics

I don't understand you comment that the volunteer won't accept training.  You know the board.  What is the issue?  This person sits through service with their hand on the power amp?  Sorry to dwell on this it just strikes me as bizarre.

You got lots of great advice.  Please keep safety on mind.  If you go with the center cluster it will probably cost as much to rig it as the apeakers (or more).  Do not under any circumstances use a maintenance person or volunteer labor for this critical task.

[Todd Latham]

All good points.

@Todd - If you do reconfigure, you could easily mix the inputs you currently have, plus more in the future, with one of the surface-less rack-mount mixers.  My favorite is the Soundcraft Ui24R, but the Behringer X32 Rack and XR18 work well for many.  That and a wireless tablet is all the Sound Area/Equipment you'd need.  In fact, the rack itself could be "back stage", so the current Sound Area could be returned to the Congregation.

I also agree with Scott's flown center cluster recommendation.  A couple of 2 or 3-way units with 60 degree horns/wave guides, hung upside down (horn down) should cover your space without blasting the front pews or the comb filtering issues that speakers in each corner can cause.

Dave

Thanks for the idea, but those mixers arent quite our speed yet!  Up until last year they still had a tape deck tied into the system.  To give you an idea of the congregations tech savvy, only about 1/4 of the church has smart phones, another 1/2 have flip phones and the rest dont see a need for them.....so trying to introduce a tablet based mixing system will be a hard sell.  Also, we use cd tracks for soloists and choir specials so there would still need to be some sort of sound area, cd changer.
As for the speakers, any specific recommendations?

[Mike Caldwell]

All good points.

@Todd - If you do reconfigure, you could easily mix the inputs you currently have, plus more in the future, with one of the surface-less rack-mount mixers.  My favorite is the Soundcraft Ui24R, but the Behringer X32 Rack and XR18 work well for many.  That and a wireless tablet is all the Sound Area/Equipment you'd need.  In fact, the rack itself could be "back stage", so the current Sound Area could be returned to the Congregation.

I also agree with Scott's flown center cluster recommendation.  A couple of 2 or 3-way units with 60 degree horns/wave guides, hung upside down (horn down) should cover your space without blasting the front pews or the comb filtering issues that speakers in each corner can cause.

Dave

Keep in mind the QU24 could be located anywhere and operated remotely.

[Tracy Garner]

All of the suggestions here make sense. To add to it, consider the worship style today versus down the road. If you are more traditional, your sound system can be more conservative in terms of output and the cluster or single speaker is enough. If you plan to move toward a more contemporary, consider replacing the cluster plus maybe adding bass cabinets to augment.

With your current digital mixer, drum mics, more praise team mics, etc. make it the proper tool long-term. I suggest offering the volunteer and a backup or two some training on the current c console. If you go with the integrator, you can likely get the training/consultation bundled. When our church upgraded, the integrator sent an operator who helped with bible study, praise & worship service, and Sunday service to help everyone get acclimated and also system fine-tune when the sanctuary was full of people.

[Stephen Swaffer]

Thanks for the idea, but those mixers arent quite our speed yet!  Up until last year they still had a tape deck tied into the system.  To give you an idea of the congregations tech savvy, only about 1/4 of the church has smart phones, another 1/2 have flip phones and the rest dont see a need for them.....so trying to introduce a tablet based mixing system will be a hard sell.  Also, we use cd tracks for soloists and choir specials so there would still need to be some sort of sound area, cd changer.
As for the speakers, any specific recommendations?

Our church is a little larger-I taught our volunteer "sound guy"who had only ever run analog how to run the service on a QU-32 for a complete Sunday-including several 4-5 person vocal ensembles, and a choir in under an hour-and had people say you couldn't tell it was a new mixer.  Properly setup for a basic service, all they really need to do is move faders up and down as needed-and maybe even just mute/unmute as needed.  Then they can learn more advanced techniques at their own pace. 

Once setup, I don't see a QU as much different than an analog board-especially if all you are currently doing is running from an amp.  In fact, one huge plus of the digital board is that you can program a scene and have them recall it every service and always have the same starting point.  If they don't understand the system and somebody messes with all those fun knobs on an analog board then they're in a big mess!

[Mike Caldwell]

Once setup, I don't see a QU as much different than an analog board-especially if all you are currently doing is running from an amp.  In fact, one huge plus of the digital board is that you can program a scene and have them recall it every service and always have the same starting point.  If they don't understand the system and somebody messes with all those fun knobs on an analog board then their in a big mess!

And the QU like many others can be set with operator password protected operation levels that only allow scene recalls and fader changes.

As for training, either on digital or analog everyday fader up down mic on off operation can be taught fairly quick but teaching how two adapt to last minute problems, trouble shooting, adding extra instruments, vocals, needed monitors ect. will not happen in a one day training session for the person who has never done anything like that before.

[Stephen Swaffer]

I agree.  From how I am picturing the situation from the OP, my feeling is that mixer they have (QU-24) running a couple of properly spec'd, placed and installed powered speakers using preset scenes recalled as I described would offer the fewest "opportunities" for troubleshooting.  Certainly much less than an analog mixer with a rack of processing and amps.

Normally, I don't like the idea of powered speakers in an install-but that is essentially the system that is our core system.    Even though the the QU-24 may be overkill, it has advantages over a "simpler" analog system in a situation like this.  Barring a catastrophic failure, you can virtually guarantee that the operator will always face the same situation when he powers up on Sunday morning.

[Nathan Riddle]

Love the suggestions.

Some more.

Absolutely keep the QU24, it is a very volunteer friendly board. You could downsize to the qu16 with so few inputs though.
Put the QU24 in basic mode for this volunteer.
Label everything.
Put a plate on the amp that blocks the gain knobs.
Hire someone to train you and your team, or purchase an online course.
Do not fly any new speakers without a proper understanding of rigging and preferably a professional installer/rigger and obtain a Structural engineer signoff.

I'm surprised you don't have feedback with that location of the column array speaker. It probably has 100-140deg vertical coverage (in that orientation) and ~20ish horizontal (in that orientation). It's firing right into the podium mic.


Sound System Options
1) Repair the speaker
2) Replace the speaker
3) Design and install a new speaker system

I'm fond of the Martin CDD series for its differential dispersion characteristics. They might be a bit older design compared to the latest Yamaha DZR series, but the coverage is very good.
If you need uber-cheap the QSC E series is very good for the money I've heard/read.

Find a local integrator/dealer for pricing they can generally help you out.
If you can't, Mike Pyle or some others on this website are good guys/gals. You can post in the Marketplace.

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