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Author Topic: AVB  (Read 4598 times)

drew gandy

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Re: AVB
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2019, 08:39:27 pm »

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Drew said: ...but so far it's been confusing for end users who largely view them as direct competitors to each other.

I wouldn't exactly say that's the case, I had no idea AVB even existed before this thread.

Well, that's exactly the topic of the beginning of this thread.  Andrew saw that some companies went with what looked like a different direction and wondered why.  So at least he fit my description.  I assume that most people in the live sound world, who have heard of AVB at some point in the past, have been assuming that VHS (DANTE) won and BetaMax (AVB) is on it's way out.  If they've kept watching, they see that's probably not the case.
 
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Granted, that's primarily because I don't live in any of the OEMs' ecosystems that are developing it, and I would say that others ignorant of AVB would share that same reasoning.

We should be aware that live concert sound is a pretty small industry.  This AV over network thing is going on more strongly in the permanent installation/ system integration world where there are many more dollars at play.  Think conference rooms, schools and various public spaces.  And that's a pretty small world compared to the automotive and industrial applications where TSN is heading.  Hopefully our little industries can hang onto those coattails. 

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If anything, I see this as a first to market type scenario where Audinate got their product out first, and have gained significant market share for over a decade because of it.

This is part of the story.  Audinate started off with a large amount of cash to do a lot of the groundwork necessary to make their stuff work.  Some smart people there recognized early on that feature rich low latency layer 3 audio (and eventually video) would attract a lot of customers as AV gets more integrated into IT.  By the time some other folks were starting to realize the potential for this, Audinate were already shipping product.  As the name got around and the capabilities became more understood, they garnered a positive brand image.  And the popularity continues to snowball.  Users ask for it in their new products.  Manufacturers [of a certain size] oblige because Audinate has made it fairly easy.  Rinse and repeat.  I think that it can be argued that there are systems that would be better for a live music sound system but if you have a dedicated network, everything is probably fine.  That said, read Andrew's posts.  Several live concert oriented manufacturers have based their systems on AVB, probably with an eye to implement some bridge devices to DANTE and other network schemes where necessary.   

There are a few other AV over LAN schemes out there.  QSC's QLAN for instance.  But if all you do is live music, you probably haven't heard of it. 




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Mac Kerr

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Re: AVB
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2019, 10:32:57 pm »

There are a few other AV over LAN schemes out there.  QSC's QLAN for instance.  But if all you do is live music, you probably haven't heard of it.

And well before any of the current crop there was Telos Livewire. I began using Livewire in the early 2000s. It was a similar system to Dante, using off the shelf switches and proprietary audio nodes. Routing was done by a web based login to each node, which provided a pull down menu of every automatically discovered source available to each destination on the 16x16 audio nodes. Telos had at one point over 10,000 installations in radio stations worldwide.

Mac
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Scott Slater

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Re: AVB
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2019, 08:03:00 am »

Unfortunately in the digital world, "standards" become quickly outgrown (and replaced) as technology advances.
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drew gandy

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Re: AVB
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2019, 11:20:03 am »

And well before any of the current crop there was Telos Livewire.

Mac

Any idea what the latency was with Livewire? 
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: AVB
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2019, 01:54:43 pm »

Thanks, Kent.

I've never heard of any of these Clocking issues he speaks of. Would love to see the measurements!

Also, surprising that Dante couldn't rectify this issue?

For those interested in Dante clocking, please check out the following power point. 
Dante Advanced Configuration


Specifically where you will find on page 17:

"The sync tolerance of Dante devices is guaranteed to be +/-1μs (microsecond)
In practice we find it to be more like +/-0.2μs
One clock cycle at 48kHz is 20.8μs
So we have a realistic sync within 1/100th of a sample!
All outputs from the network will be w/c aligned!"


That last line seems to dispute Lee's comments earlier about arrival differences for difference end nodes on the network and issues with say line arrays.

In those situations where different latency to different receivers could be an issue (arrays where varying latency would change phase interactions for instance) AVB would be preferred if directly feeding multiple amps, etc. 

You could always feed analogue or AES to those devices as well so there are other ways to get around the changing latency creating a problem.

Lee

Does anyone know the sync tolerance spec on AVB?

« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 04:18:16 pm by David Sturzenbecher »
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Robert Lofgren

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Re: AVB
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2019, 02:59:26 pm »

Didnít livewire essentially become aes67?

And well before any of the current crop there was Telos Livewire. I began using Livewire in the early 2000s. It was a similar system to Dante, using off the shelf switches and proprietary audio nodes. Routing was done by a web based login to each node, which provided a pull down menu of every automatically discovered source available to each destination on the 16x16 audio nodes. Telos had at one point over 10,000 installations in radio stations worldwide.

Mac
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: AVB
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2019, 01:57:43 pm »

For those playing along at home, here's too much info about AVB/MILAN:
https://avnu.org/Milan/
https://meyersound.com/download/avb-networking-guide/?ind=1572643301219&filename=avb_networking_guide_a.pdf&wpdmdl=539613&refresh=5debf527c0eb81575744807

Interestingly, the bit depth is 24bits. While just fine for normal audio, I do like that Dante can be 32bits which helps when a multiple consoles are being used off 1 set of preamps and a lot of digital trim is needed. Certainly not a common situation, but a difference nonetheless.

I wonder if whatever clocking issues are overcome by AVB will be negated if one were to use a Dante to Milan bridge?

Maybe clocking isn't the issue as much as companies not needing to rely on a single supplier like Audinate?
(Remember Ethersound??)
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Scott Helmke

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Re: AVB
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2019, 03:41:39 pm »

That's not universally true; Yamaha certainly could have done whatever they wanted to, but they chose Dante.

Yamaha actually did do whatever they wanted, and it's called TwinLANe.  But it would have been too expensive for the CL series, and so it's only used in the Rivage system.

Interesting side note that for anything Yamaha the Dante part is a removable module.  So if the worst happened and Audinate stopped supporting Dante and manufacturing those modules, Yamaha could make their own replacements.
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: AVB
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2019, 05:53:02 pm »



Interesting side note that for anything Yamaha the Dante part is a removable module.  So if the worst happened and Audinate stopped supporting Dante and manufacturing those modules, Yamaha could make their own replacements.

Also interesting side note... Yamaha is, or at least was a 10% shareholder of audinate. At least that is what I think pg 58 means.

2017 Audinate Investor Report
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drew gandy

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Re: AVB
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2019, 12:34:50 am »

For those playing along at home, here's too much info about AVB/MILAN:
https://avnu.org/Milan/
https://meyersound.com/download/avb-networking-guide/?ind=1572643301219&filename=avb_networking_guide_a.pdf&wpdmdl=539613&refresh=5debf527c0eb81575744807

Thank you for posting these links. 

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Interestingly, the bit depth is 24bits.

Here's a quote from a resource paper written by Jeff Koftinoff in 2015. 

"An AVB Stream can contain different media formats including encoding, sample rates and channel
counts. Some formats that are supported include: integer 24 bit audio, integer 32 bit audio, floating
point 32 bit audio, MIDI, SMPTE, MPEG video with audio, MJPEG video, SDI video with meta data, or
control data. "

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Re: AVB
¬ę Reply #39 on: December 08, 2019, 12:34:50 am ¬Ľ


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