ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Pa system design  (Read 9053 times)

Brian Jojade

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3391
    • HappyMac Digital Electronics
Re: Pa system design
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2019, 01:07:14 PM »

To put it in simple terms, your JRX rig should be adequate in a small club that holds 250 people, and even though not top quality gear, would be enough to provide quality sound without any risk of damage.  For use with a live band, I'd not want that stuff for a crowd of more than 150, tops.

Attempting to use the JRX rig in an outdoor arena as you described is NOT a good use of your gear. Period.  It doesn't matter what you measured in your studio 6 feet away from your speaker. They simply aren't designed to cover the space you are looking to do.

Yes, providing sound for these types of events is EXPENSIVE.  Doing it as a side gig is going to be tough to make any profit.  In order to get an ROI out of gear that can actually provide sound for these events, it's got to be working on a very regular basis.

If you want to do this as a side gig and actually make a profit, become a middle man for events.  Build relationships with different companies, and then be the one source that the event director can call. Then you can call in the right companies to do the job and make a bit of profit with no risk to you.
Logged
Brian Jojade

Robert Latham

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
Re: Pa system design
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2019, 01:18:11 PM »

It's an issue of "You don't know what you don't know".  There's a huge difference between 6' away and 100' away when it comes to noise levels. There's a HUUUUGE difference between measuring 104dBa of low frequency energy, vs 95dBa of full range or "the vocal region" of noise.

We don't just prefer to use those expensive systems in situations like this. They are neccesary. You physically can not cover that amount of space with the tiny little horns in your JRX boxes. Yes, noise will be *heard* probably all over the stadium. So would a lawn mower if it was driving around on the field. Does that make it a good sound sytem?

Good sound is about putting an accurate representation of whatever you are amplifying into the space it where it needs to be heard. Sometimes that takes millions of dollars worth of gear. Sometimes it takes a single powered speaker on a tripod.

JRX speakers were the cheapest junk that JBL ever sold. They were meant to be used by wedding DJ's. Sorry to be blunt, but again, Im not trying to discourage here. I just want to be clear. There are not really many "cheap" or "easy" options that would be suitable for a baseball stadium.

Point taken. I understand that more horns from the RFCs do offer better coverage in a more focused pattern. I get the better quality gear gives better response curves. The high end system I mentioned is close to $50k. I just feel that the venue could have satisfactory coverage by a system that is much less cost wise and that's what I'm trying to achieve. No disrespect to anyone here experience. Just looking to get it done as most economical as possible.
Logged

Tim Weaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3693
  • College Station, Texas
    • Daniela Weaver Photography
Re: Pa system design
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2019, 01:56:09 PM »

Point taken. I understand that more horns from the RFCs do offer better coverage in a more focused pattern. I get the better quality gear gives better response curves. The high end system I mentioned is close to $50k. I just feel that the venue could have satisfactory coverage by a system that is much less cost wise and that's what I'm trying to achieve. No disrespect to anyone here experience. Just looking to get it done as most economical as possible.

You certainly can do it cheaper, and maybe just as well. It takes experience and sharp system skills to do that though, and you don't get there without working on those mega-buck systems for more than a few years.

There are plenty of older, out-of-fashion systems on the market that can be had for cheap. But what you save in money, you lose in labor, trucking, cabling, rider acceptance, etc, etc....
Logged
Bullwinkle: This is the amplifier, which amplifies the sound. This is the Preamplifier which, of course, amplifies the pree's.

Jeff Lelko

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2017
  • Cape Canaveral, FL
Re: Pa system design
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2019, 02:12:38 PM »

...This is a high cost system...

Hi Robert.  I’m going to chime in and say that it’s actually higher cost than you might even be thinking.  Yes, the boxes themselves are around $50K, give or take, which is actually still on the cheap end in terms of professional sound, but you’ll spend at least that much again in “everything else” that you need to play at that level.  What’s your mixer?  An M32 might cut it, but depending on your bands you might need something an order of magnitude more expensive.  How about the lifts to fly your new line arrays?  That’ll be another $10K.  Proper power distros, cables, and cable ramps are mandatory here.  What’s your mic locker looking like?  How about the trucking you need to move everything?  Just spitballing here, if starting from scratch you’re probably looking at an investment in the neighborhood of $200K, give or take, and that’s before we talk staging, rigging, and lighting should you wish to include that. 

There are a number of threads here that go down this path and discuss what’s needed to truly play at the level you wish to pursue.  They all revolve around the need to have a business plan and which purchases to prioritize for ownership and which to rent.  For what it’s worth I recently spent around $10K on some truss, a lift, and moving light parts - nothing fancy - just part of doing business and part of the ongoing expenses that are budgeted for annually.  While owning bigger rigs brings in bigger revenue, your cost to maintain said rig also increases.  Best of luck with your endeavor though!
Logged

Robert Latham

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
Re: Pa system design
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2019, 02:14:29 PM »

You certainly can do it cheaper, and maybe just as well. It takes experience and sharp system skills to do that though, and you don't get there without working on those mega-buck systems for more than a few years.

There are plenty of older, out-of-fashion systems on the market that can be had for cheap. But what you save in money, you lose in labor, trucking, cabling, rider acceptance, etc, etc....

I can relate to that. I will take everyone's advice and look into better quality speakers as for dsp and power, I believe  the DBX, BSS, Rane, Sound Craft and Crown equipment I have should be adequate. Or are these brands cheap and not worth using as well?
Logged

Robert Latham

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
Re: Pa system design
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2019, 02:24:51 PM »

I can relate to that. I will take everyone's advice and look into better quality speakers as for dsp and power, I believe  the DBX, BSS, Rane, Sound Craft and Crown equipment I have should be adequate. Or are these brands cheap and not worth using as well?

Thank You
Yes I was expecting it to be in that ballpark pun intended lol I was in the hope of starting out with a smaller rig and adding as the need arises. But bottom line, I know that a system of the caliber that most production outfits require is on the order of $200k. One must crawl before they walk.
Thanks again guys.
Logged

Tim Weaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3693
  • College Station, Texas
    • Daniela Weaver Photography
Re: Pa system design
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2019, 03:16:21 PM »

I can relate to that. I will take everyone's advice and look into better quality speakers as for dsp and power, I believe  the DBX, BSS, Rane, Sound Craft and Crown equipment I have should be adequate. Or are these brands cheap and not worth using as well?

That’s like saying “is my Ford too cheap to do that”. It depends on which Ford, and what “that” is.

Crown makes crap amps and world-class amps. And out of that, there is new, used, abused, and downright broken. I can’t tell you if you have gear good enough to do a show. Only you can do that.
Logged
Bullwinkle: This is the amplifier, which amplifies the sound. This is the Preamplifier which, of course, amplifies the pree's.

Travis_Valois

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 92
Re: Pa system design
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2019, 03:51:26 PM »

I did a walk on sound gig a few years ago. I had two pairs of JRX125 and a pair of PRX618XLF to work with. I put vocals through one pair of tops, rest of the band went through the other pair and the subs. This was in a small town arena for a 5 piece band playing  mainly classic rock. Was it chest thumping loud? Nope. But it got the job done. It's  all in knowing what your gear is capable of, and keep it within its limits.
Logged

Craig Leerman

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 747
  • Do Not Read This!
Re: Pa system design
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2019, 04:45:43 PM »

in addition to some of the items Jeff mentioned, there is more costs to being a professional PA company than might be apparent. These are some of the things you need to get to the next level.

Rider Friendly Gear: Even if you are working with “B” and “C” level artists, their riders will require good gear and their crew will be easier to work with if you provide quality gear and infrastructure. Riders say things like “No Peavey, No Behringer” for a few reasons. One, it gets the band higher ended gear that is more reliable and Two, it eliminates the lower ended companies that buy crap at music stores and don’t have all the tools and experience required to do a bigger gig.

Power Distribution: most larger venues only provide a “company Switch” or big generator for outside gigs that allows you to connect your Cam Lock connectors or tie in your tails. You will require Feeder cable, a PD (Power distribution box that takes the 3 phases plus neutral and ground and provides breakers and outlets) as well as power cables to all your gear.  In addition, the PA company is responsible for providing outlets onstage for the band’s equipment.

Quality console(s): Good rider friendly consoles cost money and you will need a separate monitor console on many gigs.

Audio Transport: you will need snakes and stage boxes for the gig. Unless you are doing a small event and set up the console next to the stage you will need a long snake along with stage boxes and possibly stage snakes. Digital snake systems and stage boxes are not cheap.

High End Mic Locker: While a seasoned sound tech can probable do most gigs with just “Sticks and Balls” (SM57s and 58s), bands riders usually require a large diaphragm kick mic(s), condensers for overheads, possible specialized horn mics, etc.

Quality Wireless: Good handhelds are usually needed for bands and beltpacks with lavaliers or head worn mics are required at corporates. In Ear Monitor systems also show up on riders.

Lots of stands: Quality mic stands are needed in a few sizes. Shorty booms, tall booms, and a few round base units. Speaker stands, lifts and truss may be required at events. Flying speakers is common at many high end events and rigging equipment like span sets and motors will be needed. In addition a qualified rigger needs to be on the sound company staff even if the venue provides their own riggers at the gig. The qualified person ensures the rig is installed correctly at the gig and makes sure all parts are safe and maintained and maintenanced when at the shop.

Quality DI boxes: Countryman, Radial and Whirlwind, not music store specials are required.

Lots of Cable: Even a small event might require more cable than you think. A pro company brings a ton of mic, snake, speaker and power cables to every gig.

Quality Speakers: Adequate for the number of attendees and the coverage of the audience are. At the Next Level, delay speaker might be required on gigs so the mains are not blasting out those near the stage. Front Fills may also be required on some gigs.

Quality Monitor Speakers: of course you need good monitor boxes, possibly side fills and a drum wedge/sub

Now, what separates the good companies from the rest:

Backups and spares: A good company brings backups like an extra speakers and monitor wedge, tons of extra cables, adapters, turn around, gaff tape, tools, etc. they usually have a work box(s) loaded with stuff “Just-In-Case”

Cases and Covers: A good company shows up with their gear protected and on wheels. Clean Gear is a must at the next level.

Experienced Quality Crew: A good company has quality crew. These folks cost more but make up for it by doing it right the first time and being able to problem solve at the gig.

All of the above costs a lot of money and we have not even mentioned where to store the gear, how to transport the gear to the gig and most important, doing things legally. A real company needs licensing and business insurance in addition to building/gear/truck/car insurance.

Buying some bigger speakers does not get one to the next level.
Logged
I'm so old, when I was doing FOH for Tommy Dorsey, to balance out the horn section I would slide their chairs downstage and upstage to mix!

TechWorksReno.com
Facebook.com/TechWorksReno
Pinterest.com/TechWorks0492

Robert Latham

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14
Re: Pa system design
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2019, 06:46:25 PM »

That’s like saying “is my Ford too cheap to do that”. It depends on which Ford, and what “that” is.

Crown makes crap amps and world-class amps. And out of that, there is new, used, abused, and downright broken. I can’t tell you if you have gear good enough to do a show. Only you can do that.

Mr Weaver
I do amplifier design and repair as well as muscian mechanics electrical industrial automation and many other professional degreed tasks. I assure you my  "old abused com tech amplifiers" are in perfect working order.
Do I came to be a sound design engineer? No I do not, but I do understand the maths and the process involved. Since you brought automotive analogys into the conversation, I have to say that my old amps are like having a 1970 Chevelle with the LS6 454. Big heavy and fast as hell in a straight line. Are they the best product on the market? No not by a long shot, but will kick the shit out of most QSCs on the present market.
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Pa system design
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2019, 06:46:25 PM »


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.044 seconds with 22 queries.