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Author Topic: FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.  (Read 635 times)

Steve Crump

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FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.
« on: November 10, 2019, 06:19:00 pm »

I did an event this weekend for a local brewery. It was outside, sort of a Octoberfest. 3 groups, one duo (guitar and keys), a four pc cover band (pop and rock), and then a 5 pc cover band (country and rock). All 45 minutes sets, 2 sets for the duo and 3 sets each for the bands.

My setup. A&H QU mixer, signal through a Ashly Protea 4.8, to Crown MAi amp for subs, Powersoft T602 for tops. Tops are TW Audio T20s and subs JTR C212. I used an iPad out front and left the board stage side.

The T602 is a new purchase and arrived right before the event, so with the learning curve using Armonia Plus I didn't get everything completely setup so, I left the Protea handling crossover duties. I did download the presets from TW to use with the Powersoft before the event.

On to the problem. End of the event, last set for the last band and all of the sudden it's like I pressed the mute on the FOH and as quick as it went away, it came back. That band never flinched, the audience either. I was tired by the end of the night and forgot to ask the band if they noticed anything on stage. The problem is that it happened so quickly, I really didn't notice if it was all the FOH or just the tops. I really didn't push the system, or at least I didn't think so. I am so paranoid about damaging equipment I usually take time to look at the amps and make sure I am not pounding on them. But, at this event I didn't have any help with sound, so I pretty much was on the run all day and didn't take the time to see how hard the new PS was working or I guess how hard I was working it. It sounded great.

My question, does it sound like I just experienced a limiter in the Powersoft kicking in?

Great night, fun bands.

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Bob Faulkner

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Re: FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2019, 06:59:34 am »

Sounds doubtful that a limiter would mute channels.  Were you (or did you) make any changes to the Protea just before the muting occurred?  I hear (no pun intended) that the dbx venue 360 will mute it's output while updates are made to scene settings.  Not sure if the Protea experiences that issue.
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Chris Hindle

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Re: FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2019, 08:16:11 am »

Power line gremlin?
Chris,
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Ya, Whatever. Just throw a '57 on it, and get off my stage.

Chris Grimshaw

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Re: FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2019, 08:36:18 am »

Power would be my bet. T-series certainly don't limit like that, unless the processing you uploaded is suspect.

FWIW, I've pushed a T602 well past clipping when bridged into a 4ohm load, and it never flinched.

Chris
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Steve Crump

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Re: FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2019, 08:48:56 am »

Sounds doubtful that a limiter would mute channels.  Were you (or did you) make any changes to the Protea just before the muting occurred?  I hear (no pun intended) that the dbx venue 360 will mute it's output while updates are made to scene settings.  Not sure if the Protea experiences that issue.
Bob,

Never touched the Protea that day and I was not making use of the limiters in the Protea either, (just a side thought). While I was typing my post yesterday is when the thought really came to life, ďcould the T602 have hit a limit and killed the signal to the tops for less than a secondĒ?.

At the point this happened I was very comfortable with the settings and was in cruise control, watching the clock and ready to finish the night.

The only change that night to anything related to signal was in the last set at the end of the night, the acoustic guitar player kept having some issue with some type of effects pedal and kept tinkering with adjustments and he would ramp up his signal and it would start red-lining on my board, I would adjust, then he would adjust.
He had already played 2 1/2 sets and never ask for more of the AC guitar in his monitor and he never looked out front and signaled for anything. Since it was near the closing of the show I didnít try to give him anymore to his monitor in fear that with my new very hot signal from the AC that I may encounter feedback and didnít want to end the night with that. The band said that it was one the best stage sounds they have had at a show, so I am thinking maybe the AC player had enough in his monitor.

The mute actually happened shortly after the AC player and I stopped changing gain structure and the band was in a middle of a song, so maybe the scenario didnít cause the issue.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 09:27:58 am by Steve Crump »
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Steve Crump

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Re: FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2019, 09:07:34 am »

Power line gremlin?
Chris,

Could have been. Power was close by, I was using a 50AMP distro to the rack and fed everything from there, including the LED string-o-lights on the stage. Nothing else that was tied to the system changed when the front went mute. I donít think that I even lost monitors. I am thinking it was solely tops, and maybe subs. Hard for me to recall, it happened so fast.

Okay, last but not least. The mixing board that I was using was hit by a power surge during a storm when it was loaned out to the local community theatre. When the board was repaired the service center called me and said, we needed to call you and let you know that we canít warranty the repairs because anytime a board is hit with this type of damage we canít be sure that something else will not fail.

Board glitch maybe?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 09:31:04 am by Steve Crump »
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Steve Crump

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Re: FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2019, 09:23:52 am »

Power would be my bet. T-series certainly don't limit like that, unless the processing you uploaded is suspect.

FWIW, I've pushed a T602 well past clipping when bridged into a 4ohm load, and it never flinched.

Chris


That is comforting to know. My original post was incorrect, the download preset that I downloaded for the T series came via Powersoft, not TW. I understand the basic function of a limiter, but do not know the technical aspects. And I donít know how the system reacts when it hits limiters.

Enlighten me. I havenít really spent time in limit with my gear and really do not know what I would experience from the FOH position. If I am positioned out front, listening to a show and I hit limiters, what do I hear, what changes from a sound stand point?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 09:26:22 am by Steve Crump »
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2019, 10:40:31 am »

Enlighten me. I havenít really spent time in limit with my gear and really do not know what I would experience from the FOH position. If I am positioned out front, listening to a show and I hit limiters, what do I hear, what changes from a sound stand point?
With good limiters... nothing at all, if the amp rack is positioned so you can see the front of the gear you might catch a limit indication(red LED) but that is it.
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Jay Marr

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Re: FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2019, 10:58:52 am »

With good limiters... nothing at all, if the amp rack is positioned so you can see the front of the gear you might catch a limit indication(red LED) but that is it.

(this may not be helpful but...)

I had the same thing happen to me at a rehearsal a couple days ago.  Just like I hit a mute button the PA for a second.
My rehearsal system is a X32 (for mixer and processing), Crown iTech amp, JBL SRX tops/subs.  Been using it for at least a year, never happened before.
I thought I hit a limitter (which has never happened in the past).

Finished rehearsal, muted my mixer, then went to shut the Crown off.  When I barely even brushed the button on the front, the amp shut off and powered back up.
Experimented a bit and seems like that power switch on the front needs to be replaced.  Just breathing on it seems to trigger it to shut off/on.
I know you're not using these amps, but just sharing as it may be something to experiment with on your amps (or xover).





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Mark Oakley

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Re: FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2019, 11:57:14 am »

I'd also check out electrical connections, especially if you have power cables you've built yourself, with detachable plugs. I've had neutrals come loose on the Main feeder and had the voltages move up and down, and just last month I had a loose ground wire in a stove plug that power cycled a few amps if there was a slight static discharge by touching them.

-Mark
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Re: FOH muted during a show and I don't know why.
¬ę Reply #9 on: November 11, 2019, 11:57:14 am ¬Ľ


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