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Author Topic: newbie update & dumb question?  (Read 881 times)

andyolsen

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newbie update & dumb question?
« on: November 09, 2019, 09:59:45 pm »

Hi all,

I asked for advice on a small bar rig awhile back.
Thought I'd let you know what I got and how it's going, seeing as how I have this Saturday night off.

I took everyone's recommendations to heart and bought

2 dB IG4T's
2 JTR Captivator 2 12 subs
2 Yamaha DZR 1 12's
K and M Stands
Some Shure mics
EWI cases, GLS cables
Allan and Heath QuPac
Chauvet lights (2 trees w/4 led's and some back lighting), a ENXIS dongle
Laptop

My budget had been 10,000 to 20,000 dollars and, thanks to Mike P., I came in quite a bit under budget.
I still probably have more stuff to buy, but for now I think I'm good.
I have a bar band in rehearsal,and have been using parts of the rig with other guys PA's.

Last weekend I used the DZRs for monitors on a rockabilly theatre show gig at the Marion Ross Theatre
in Albert Lea MN.
The drummer said having the bass and kick in the wedges made the gig " 5 times more fun"!
I've used the JTR's in place of 2 Yorkville LS801P's (?) on a top 40 bar band gig.
They totally held their own, and sounded better to me.(although I was on in ears)

So here is my stupid question.
I would like to try aux feed subs. Will it really make that much difference?
Not sure how to do it. I will research it here on the forums, but talking to sound guys around town
make it seem like it's wired up just like running monitors.
Now I've been running L+R into the IG4T, Crossover on the IG4T out to the JTR's.
So just use the low pass filter (or is it called the high pass filter?) on an aux output straight into the JTRs?

Thanks again!
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2019, 06:12:02 am »

Hi all,

I asked for advice on a small bar rig awhile back.
Thought I'd let you know what I got and how it's going, seeing as how I have this Saturday night off.

I took everyone's recommendations to heart and bought

2 dB IG4T's
2 JTR Captivator 2 12 subs
2 Yamaha DZR 1 12's
K and M Stands
Some Shure mics
EWI cases, GLS cables
Allan and Heath QuPac
Chauvet lights (2 trees w/4 led's and some back lighting), a ENXIS dongle
Laptop

My budget had been 10,000 to 20,000 dollars and, thanks to Mike P., I came in quite a bit under budget.
I still probably have more stuff to buy, but for now I think I'm good.
I have a bar band in rehearsal,and have been using parts of the rig with other guys PA's.

Last weekend I used the DZRs for monitors on a rockabilly theatre show gig at the Marion Ross Theatre
in Albert Lea MN.
The drummer said having the bass and kick in the wedges made the gig " 5 times more fun"!
I've used the JTR's in place of 2 Yorkville LS801P's (?) on a top 40 bar band gig.
They totally held their own, and sounded better to me.(although I was on in ears)

So here is my stupid question.
I would like to try aux feed subs. Will it really make that much difference?
Not sure how to do it. I will research it here on the forums, but talking to sound guys around town
make it seem like it's wired up just like running monitors.
Now I've been running L+R into the IG4T, Crossover on the IG4T out to the JTR's.
So just use the low pass filter (or is it called the high pass filter?) on an aux output straight into the JTRs?

Thanks again!

I read your past posts and couldn't find what you are using for a mixer. Some new digital boards have a crossover section in them. Let us know what you have to maybe make your setup easier.  Also are your Captivator 2-12's Self powered with an amp installed in the back of the box or do you have the passive ones that need an external amp?

I have both IG2T's and IG4T's. First regardless if your using Aux Fed subs or not and your doing bar bands, top 40 type bands or bands in general that require using subwoofers you'll want to make sure you are taking the low frequencies out of your IG4T's. Either with the crossover in your IG's or using the High Pass out from a self powered subwoofer or external crossover. Roughly between 100 to 120hz and below should be taken out depending on the crossover point set on your subs. As you have 2-12 subs I'd recommend between 110 and 120 hz. Start with 120hz and adjust down some if needed.  I set and store 3 crossover points in my tops besides a full range one. 100, 110 and 120 hz to use as needed. When setting you'll crossover functions up in your IG4T's you'll know you have it right when you see an image on the back of your speakers in the display that shows a top and a sub when you turn on your IG speakers. Make sure you have that when not using a external crossover of one form or the other when using subs so that you don't push them too low in the bass range.  I use and like Aux Fed subs.  Let us know what you have as far as your mixer and what your subs are as far as Active Self powered or passive. Also does your subs currently have a High Pass out?

Douglas R. Allen
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 06:48:24 am by Douglas R. Allen »
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2019, 07:08:29 am »

The mixer is hidden away in the first post - A&H QuPac.

I'm not keen on Aux-fed subs. In my opinion, it's a compromise in usability for the sake of steeper highpass filters on some channels. Plus, if your desk goes down, you can't operate the PA system properly.

Chris
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2019, 08:22:17 am »

The mixer is hidden away in the first post - A&H QuPac.

Plus, if your desk goes down, you can't operate the PA system properly.

Chris

If any desk goes down... your going to have a tough time operating your system...
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Mal Brown

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2019, 10:49:36 am »

Aux fed subs (at least in my opinion) are an answer looking for a question in the age of digital boards with variable high pass on each channel.  it is an un-necessary complication that is a hold over from the days of analog boards with fixed 75 or 80 hz filters.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2019, 11:17:50 am »

Aux fed subs (at least in my opinion) are an answer looking for a question in the age of digital boards with variable high pass on each channel.  it is an un-necessary complication that is a hold over from the days of analog boards with fixed 75 or 80 hz filters.

Yes and No.

If you are used to mixing on aux-subs then you kind of get used to it as a tonal tool. Being able to boost the amount of kick and toms you feed to the subs can mean you set up a flatter PA overall and just boost those few things that need the extra huevos, and then things like synths and bass guitars can still sound normal.

Relying on variable HP on channels usually (not saying it's right or wrong) means the PA is tuned with extra subbage to sound "right" for modern music. We are used to so much exagerated low end in consumer devices now that PA's are following suit for the most part.

With Aux-fed subs you can have the best of both worlds. Want a flat PA? Fine. Want bass to shake that stanky leg? Also fine. You can do it with the same PA.
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andyolsen

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2019, 11:45:08 am »

Thank you,

All good advice.

Doug, I have the powered JTR subs and have been using the crossover in the IG4T for running the Captivators.

Thanks for the posts on your tops. It's part of the reason I bought the dB tops!

Mal, I hear where you are coming from. I did a search on aux feed subs here on the forums.
A bunch of the lessons and advice links no longer worked, but what I did read it sounds like I don't really
need to do it if I don't want to.

I haven't yet used this system with my own band( the reason I bought it).
I've only run it at my house, and it sounds great!
Run the L+R outputs to the dB IG4T tops>JTR Captivator is how I've done it so far.

I have used parts of this system with other people's PA.
The top 40 bar band is a group I play in as a sub.(I'm a bassist)
They usually run a Yorkville LS801P (2) and we tried my subs a couple of times.
Actually I don't know how he (the drummer) hooked it up.
His tops are passive, so he must have run it some other way because there isn't a crossover built into
the Captivators. He has a digital Mackie board, and a power amp for his tops.
But I think the JTR's sounded better than his Yorkies( i think of them as one note wonders).

I do like "shake that stanky leg" thing, but so far, the JTR's hooked up the regular way,is plenty.

I'm still learning QuPac, as I am a total newbie wanna be sound guy, but I can get sound out of it.(maybe just not great sound!!)

I wonder if taking on line classes, might be a good idea.
I keep reading here,but a lot of the discussion is over my head.
I ask for advice on the gigs I play, but knowledge is power, right.
(for example, the matrix and VCA groups on my QuPac, best mic's to buy, etc)

Thanks again for the advice and all the contributions on this web site!
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Frank Koenig

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2019, 12:16:16 pm »

So here is my stupid question.
I would like to try aux feed subs. Will it really make that much difference?
Not sure how to do it. I will research it here on the forums, but talking to sound guys around town
make it seem like it's wired up just like running monitors.
Now I've been running L+R into the IG4T, Crossover on the IG4T out to the JTR's.
So just use the low pass filter (or is it called the high pass filter?) on an aux output straight into the JTRs?

Thanks again!

Congratulation on your new rig. It will give you pleasure. And not a stupid question. Aux-fed subs is just a way of keeping sources that don't need the subs from getting muddied up by emanating from multiple (often not collocated) speakers. With proper high passing of each source it won't make much difference in most situations, but I see it as a way to avoid trouble. On the other hand, in a combat situation, there is the danger of forgetting to assign an input to the subs that needs them. (How would I know?) It also makes it easy to change the relative level between the tops and the subs, but this is a very sharp double-edged sword as it makes it too easy to booger up the top-sub crossover.
 
I own a A&H QuPac and investigated configuring it for aux-fed subs. Here's the problem. Of course you can use one of the aux mixes (post fader) and send it to the subs. This is not acceptable for me as I found no way to get the aux master to track the main (LR) master. This makes it awkward to keep the sub-top crossover calibrated. As a further nit, the main output is available as AES but the auxes are analog only, so if you're driving the house system via AES you need to go analog for the subs. Of course this can be made to work if delays are set correctly but is neither fish nor fowl and just awkward. So no aux-fed subs for me on the QuPac.

On the dLive I use the main center mix (L+R) for aux subs and assign the LR mix and L+R mix to adjacent faders and manually move them together. As I often run different numbers of (identical) subs I compensate by keeping a fixed offset in the main faders. This is easier and less error prone for me than firing up the control app and doing it in the speaker processing. The exact dB readout in the scribble strip satisfies my obsessive need for calibration. And since my sub-top crossover has a good bit of phase overlap I could get away with using the sub master as a form of EQ -- not that I ever would  ;) ;) ;)

--Frank

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W. Mark Hellinger

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2019, 12:45:34 pm »

The drummer said having the bass and kick in the wedges made the gig " 5 times more fun"!
With your comment, I'll suggest that a few years ago I fixed our drummer up with a butt-kicker... and he's become totally hooked... can't hardly perform without it anymore.  I've also noticed that when our band is on a stage, where we can all feel the drummer's butt-kicker through our feet, the band plays their tightest... especially for myself (I'm the bassist).  The wedge monitors we use are functionally incapable of significant low-end (super compact 10" wedges... great for vocals as they're intended)... I high-pass them purposely to keep from killing them.  The inclusion of the butt-kicker also helps significantly to minimize our stage volume... big plus in lively rooms.
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2019, 03:55:31 pm »



Doug, I have the powered JTR subs and have been using the crossover in the IG4T for running the Captivators.
I Run the L+R outputs to the dB IG4T tops>JTR Captivator is how I've done it so far.



I wanted to double check on this. As far as I knew, and to be honest I've never checked, the thru out on the IG4T is not a low frequency out when the crossover function is used in the IG4T. Its a full range copy of the input. So if you go into your IG4T with the crossover set to 110hz on them the thru out is not 110hz and below its full range. Are you sure your subs don't have a crossover in them that takes high frequencies out of the subs?  Again I never checked for this but I've never seen any mention of this in the IG4T manual.  Could you check your subs and see if there is some kind of crossover in them. Some have an adjustable one or others just fixed to 1 frequency.  A easy check is go full range out of your mixer and straight into a sub and see if there is any High Frequencies content coming out of them.

Thanks;

Douglas R. Allen
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Luke Geis

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2019, 04:53:41 pm »

There are pro's and con's to Subs on aux for sure. I prefer it myself and to me, it just makes more sense.

The big thing to keep in mind with subs on an aux is that there is no rule that says you can't put everything into the subs. A subs on aux system can be ran just as if it were a conventional L/R system. So no loss there. Some mixers do not really accommodate subs on an aux due to lack of being able to track the Aux level to the mains, but it can be done without issue with a little more work.

The biggest advantage of running subs on an aux is improved clarity of your mix and you can increase the available headroom to your subs. Since most all of the channels have no real reason to be in the subs, keeping them out of them can really help clean the mix up. Because you are not sending 24 some odd channels to the subs ( high passed or not ) the subs catch a huge break and their energy is spent on only the media you want it to reproduce.

It does require some more work to implement subs on an aux and there is a relationship to the mains that needs to be maintained in order to be right, but once this is done, you generally don't have to worry about it much. You can put anything into the subs that you wish, so you can have your cake and eat it too if you want.

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andyolsen

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2019, 12:08:20 pm »

Thanks again everybody!

Frank- Do I understand correctly that the AES you mentioned is what I think of as a stage box of inputs/outputs?

W. Mark- Is "butt kicker" an actual company and product? It's something you put on the drummer's throne, right?

Doug- I've been using the L+R outputs of QuPac>IG4T input. Then crossover on IG4T at 120,out of IG4T via the "link"
XLR male output plug>JTR Captivator XLR female input.

But the Captivator does have controls for crossover etc.(mini toggle switch w/on,auto,off-standby and on lights-gain-
lf adjustment-crossover-and delay controls).

The weird thing, that I hadn't noticed till now, is that the sub also has a speakon output. But on one of the subs, that output
has a little cover on it. Not sure if it works or not.

So am I correct to think that I could run the L+R outputs from the QuPac into the sub, full range, and then to the IG4T's ,
if I can figure out the weird cover thingy?

I will try your trouble shooting idea on the subs and see what happens.
I think I should also call JTR and ask what he thinks.

Thanks again!
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Miguel Dahl

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2019, 12:13:35 pm »

There are pro's and con's to Subs on aux for sure. I prefer it myself and to me, it just makes more sense.

The big thing to keep in mind with subs on an aux is that there is no rule that says you can't put everything into the subs. A subs on aux system can be ran just as if it were a conventional L/R system. So no loss there. Some mixers do not really accommodate subs on an aux due to lack of being able to track the Aux level to the mains, but it can be done without issue with a little more work.

The biggest advantage of running subs on an aux is improved clarity of your mix and you can increase the available headroom to your subs. Since most all of the channels have no real reason to be in the subs, keeping them out of them can really help clean the mix up. Because you are not sending 24 some odd channels to the subs ( high passed or not ) the subs catch a huge break and their energy is spent on only the media you want it to reproduce.

It does require some more work to implement subs on an aux and there is a relationship to the mains that needs to be maintained in order to be right, but once this is done, you generally don't have to worry about it much. You can put anything into the subs that you wish, so you can have your cake and eat it too if you want.

Do you have any examples for "any" desks about how to make the sub-aux track the main L/R?

This was my biggest hassle when I was mixing on analog desks. How would one do it now? Haven't done aux-subs or requested to have it set up that way for years because of that hassle, which I to be honest didn't dive into to make it "functional".

One can also use the mono send for feeding the subs, instead of an aux.
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W. Mark Hellinger

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2019, 12:13:48 pm »


W. Mark- Is "butt kicker" an actual company and product? It's something you put on the drummer's throne, right?

Yes, it mounts on the drummer's throne.  More info here:

https://thebuttkicker.com/pro-audio/

Although (uh-hum):  "We're" not listed among the mfg's website's pro users... so I don't know what's up with that  :(  Although admittedly we don't "tour"... technically speaking I suppose... but we have played out of town!  More than once.  And all our friends tell us they like us.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 12:21:45 pm by W. Mark Hellinger »
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andyolsen

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2019, 01:04:34 pm »

Thanks guys.

Mike P. helped me with this, and I talked to Jeff about the crossover.

If any one needs it the crossover points on the 2 12 Captivator are(starting at the lowest setting to highest, 12 lines)
65,70,75,80,85,90,95,100,110,120,150,and 250 Hz's (? right? Hz's).
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Frank Koenig

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2019, 01:19:24 pm »

Frank- Do I understand correctly that the AES you mentioned is what I think of as a stage box of inputs/outputs?

The AES output is a 2 channel digital audio output hard-wired to the left and right main mixes, as I recall. You can look up the AES3 or AES/EBU standard. Look in the QuPac documentation to see if it's configurable in any way. --Frank
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Gary Weller

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2019, 01:58:23 pm »

Do you have any examples for "any" desks about how to make the sub-aux track the main L/R?

This was my biggest hassle when I was mixing on analog desks. How would one do it now? Haven't done aux-subs or requested to have it set up that way for years because of that hassle, which I to be honest didn't dive into to make it "functional".

One can also use the mono send for feeding the subs, instead of an aux.

On the Behringer/Midas X desks you use the Mono/Center feed for subs and in the setup menu you can link the mono/center follow the L/R.
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Sean Anderson

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2019, 02:20:11 pm »

I use a post-fade matrix send on my boards, Presonus Studiolive iii. They track along with the channel faders and all subgroups, auxes, and channels can be individually added to the subs. I use a dca linked to all channels to turn everything up and down to make a board wide change, my master level. A matrix send is probably a good option on other desks.
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2019, 02:29:36 pm »

Thanks guys.

Mike P. helped me with this, and I talked to Jeff about the crossover.

If any one needs it the crossover points on the 2 12 Captivator are(starting at the lowest setting to highest, 12 lines)
65,70,75,80,85,90,95,100,110,120,150,and 250 Hz's (? right? Hz's).

Great.
Go into your tops set to 120hz. Down to the Subs with their crossover set to 120hz and set your levels to blend well and your good to go. You may find 120hz for the tops and 100hz for the subs blend better. This does lend well to Aux Fed subs down the line should you try it. In the future let us know how your like the C212's. Hearing good things about the subs and I may need smaller/lighter someday and I have your IG4T tops and I am interested how they work together for you. Its nice to have a real world evaluation.
Keep us posted.
Douglas R. Allen
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Luke Geis

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2019, 03:59:09 pm »

There are a few different models that you can track the Mono bus to the L/R. These mixers make the task of subs on an aux easier. The most popular one for this is the Behringer X32 and Midas M32 models, but several others have a similar function. It is trivial if you ask me though. I set the master level where it needs to be early in the event and once it is set where it needs to be, I don't mess it much more and it's not very much work to shift up or down a couple of db and deal with the small shift in balance for a couple of seconds till I can adjust the aux master. I mean, 25 years ago you had no choice but to move another fader to track the subs to the mains. It isn't like the whole PA falls apart when you shift the level a few db. 
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Laurence Nefzger

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2019, 06:01:41 pm »

Do you have any examples for "any" desks about how to make the sub-aux track the main L/R?

This was my biggest hassle when I was mixing on analog desks. How would one do it now? Haven't done aux-subs or requested to have it set up that way for years because of that hassle, which I to be honest didn't dive into to make it "functional".

One can also use the mono send for feeding the subs, instead of an aux.
Besides the X32/M32 noted in many replies another way to handle this issue is to have a DCA control both the aux master and the master bus.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2019, 07:16:46 pm »

I have a Qu Pac and normally run the mains with the AES out into the DBX360 input, works great, sounds clean. When I run the system with aux subs I still use the AES to run the mains and an analog out for subs.

In the DSP I add delay to the AES input to compensate for the additional latency on the analog sub aux input, I can't remember what that delay is right now!

If I'm doing bluegrass/acoustic acts with a larger system I always go with aux subs.

The QU's only have one AES output but it assignable to any of the QU output sources.

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2019, 08:51:11 pm »

I like running aux-fed subs.  Honestly I can't remember the last time I had to adjust the Master fader during a gig, so the tracking of Master and Aux master isn't really an issue.  If I'm mixing a band I have them on a DCA anyway and adjust the volume using said DCA. 
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Tim Weaver

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Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2019, 01:22:34 pm »

Do you have any examples for "any" desks about how to make the sub-aux track the main L/R?

This was my biggest hassle when I was mixing on analog desks. How would one do it now? Haven't done aux-subs or requested to have it set up that way for years because of that hassle, which I to be honest didn't dive into to make it "functional".

One can also use the mono send for feeding the subs, instead of an aux.


Why are you messing with the Stereo main anyway? On any desk that lets me, I hide it away and never touch it. I have mute groups that can mute the desk in an emergency, and after soundcheck I can't recall a time when I have needed the main L/R fader for anything.

On my CL5's I have my money channels on those two right hand side faders.....
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: newbie update & dumb question?
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2019, 01:22:34 pm »


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