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[Ivan Beaver]

I didn't go into mics because he didn't list any.  They might have nicer mics or they might not.  Either way if the speaker system sucks using significantly better mics is lipstick on a pig... or an investment in the future depending on your perspective.

In the whole signal chain, the worst devices (or that make the biggest difference) are the ones that convert one form of energy to another.  The loudspeakers and the mics.

 Loudspeakers are much worse than mics.  Everything else makes very little difference (as long as it is run in the linear range).

Spend your money where it will make the greatest difference.

People should always remember, you are only as good as your weakest link.  Making other things stronger in the chain does not make the chain stronger.

[Steve Garris]

Dan, you're getting great advise here, and I agree with all saying you need to sell and buy new. This will likely be the last time you have to do this. BTW, Behringer has really improved their name with regards to audio digital mixers, and have become a club-level industry standard. 

The PA posted by Sean is excellent, and a great starting point.
Also look at any of these series for powered speakers:
JBL PRX, Yamaha DXR, QSC K12.2 and other sizes, similarly priced options from EV and other brands.

There are many small digital board mixers that will suit you well.
My favorite for ease of use/digital transition, has been the Mackie DL1608.
I also purchased a Soundcraft Ui24 which is very easy to use.
Then there are the Behringer XR and the Midas MR models, both extremely popular.
Also popular here is the QSC Touchmix series.

Good luck!

[Scott Bolt]

First let me say that I agree with everyone here on what the BEST solution would be for you; however, if you really need to do this on-the-cheep, here are some suggestions:

1)  First improve your vocal clarity.  The cheapest speakers I recommend are the Alto TS312's.  The only issue I ever hear about them is that they are not as robust as higher priced speakers (surprise eh?) if you abuse them.  If you want peace of mind, Yamaha DBR12 has a 7 year warranty .... but doesn't sound as good to me.  Still, it is likely a light-speed jump over your current speakers.  You should be able to negotiate a pair of either of these for ~$500.  As a final option, consider a SINGLE used PRX712 or DXR12 which you can get for around the same $500.

2)  Improve your subs.  This is more expensive.  I would look into a used powered sub.  Either a PRX618/718/818 or a KW181 would be my advice.  You should be able to find one of these used for ~ $600.  Either one will blow the doors off of your Behringer subs.

So, for around $1000.00 you can vastly improve your current sound...... not to the level these guys are talking about.  The systems they are recommending are really superior in every way to what I have laid out here .... but they are also considerably more expensive.

Everything I listed here will sound WAY better and go WAY louder than what you have today.

What I would probably do if money was really tight:  Buy a single DXR12 and a single PRX718XLF.  When money permits, I would then add another DXR12 ..... and when money permits again .... another PRX718XLF.  That would start you out with a respectable system for 1K, and end you with a really good system for a total of around 2K.

Oh, and while the mixer might be getting it done, it has been my experience that old Behringer mixers suck the sound out of the band.  Really.  The difference between a Behringer mixer and the MixWiz I replaced it with was astonishing (that was before digital mixers).  Still, I would handle the speakers first.  It is by far the best way to improve your sound clarity and output.

[W. Mark Hellinger]

if money was really tight:

With that, I'm thinking:  The OP's been running the existing rig for 11 years... and I'm guessing 11 years ago wasn't their first rodeo.  There is the mention of finances... "better", but not QSC league (price).  And they get the existing audiopile sounding "ok"... but it's routinely pushed to the max and runs out of gas.  At this point, I'm guessing the OP has learned how to trouble shoot, and find the sweet spot with the knobs to squeeze blood out of a turnip.  And obviously they're still in the saddle... and have made it work this long with lesser tools... what's the potential with good tools?  Maybe it's time... as the OP alluded, to assess the situation... and with that, I suggest don't hamstring talent potential with lesser tools.  I think chosen right and bought right, $10K - $15K equipment capitalization budget should justifiably value add the product much closer to a diminished point of return, and thus likely should be considered.  Interest has never been much cheaper, and value has never been much better.  Sure, the live band market isn't what it was in the '70's... but if they're still solvent, they must have something viable going for themselves.

Looking to the next 11 years:  $15K working 50 - 100 shows a year, that's $27.27 - $13.64 per show... and if figuring some salvage value of the gear after 11 years, the cost could be <$10/show.

[Douglas R. Allen]

My band is your typical weekend warrior rock group. 99% of our gigs, we supply our own PA. I would say we get mostly satisfactory sound, but we are running at the limits of the system's capability to get clean sound. Also, the system is roughly 11 years old of hard gigging, often in rough environments. We have some money to upgrade, but want to do so intelligently, or not at all. The system is adequate, so if we need to spend allot to move the needle noticeably, we can hold off.

Here's what we have. Trigger warning, it's mostly from an often mocked manufacturer.

48 channel Berringer board. We're happy with it.

2 JBL MR  925 speakers. They  seem to sound decent, but need repair often lately. They are pretty old.

 Two full range peavy speakers that I can't remember the model of. They are our go-to mains, but don't really impress me.

Two passive Berringer 18" subs. They are whatever berringer was selling ten years ago. They have NEVER impressed me.

One berringer ep2500 amp. We typically run the mains on this. Either a peavy in each half, or a peavy and a jbl in parallel I each half.

One berringer ep4000. I run the subs in parallel on one half of it, and use the other half for monitors.

One unused berringer ep4000.

One berringer crossover, set around 100 Hz

Ok, that's the bulk of it. My biggest areas of complaint are, headroom in general, clarity, and underwhelming subs.

I'm especially curious if those berringer subs are our biggest liability. We have far more wattage in unused amps than we currently can use with them, but they really don't impress at all. I'm open to critique on how I'm running them. I'm just a hack really.

We are considering powered speakers, but I am leery of any lower cost class D amp. Every good sounding powered sub I've seen weighs a ton (maybe that's what it's gonna take). We are probably looking for mid priced stuff. No more berringer, but no QSC  or like priced. Yamaha level of price maybe?

     First nice post. Show common sense and a good reality as to where you are now and asking the right questions to move ahead in the right direction. There is a large pool of experienced people here to get some great information.  The first thing I'd like to ask is what make and model Peavey speakers do you currently have. Peavey SP2's or International series or PV series etc.?  I used the SP series for more than 25 years and there is ways to get better sound and output out of them. The SP series also take and need plenty of headroom to open up. That being said are you sure both subs and tops are functioning correctly and not damaged? A coil rubbing or damage surround / horn driver may not be as noticeable right away during a show but can degrade the sound non the less. Your amps both on subs and tops are entry level and new amps are no where near as expensive as they were years ago. Peavey in general wants between RMS and Program wattage for there speakers. Program for experience users as I believe you are. As an example if your tops are 300 watts RMS 600 watts program you'd want an amp on them that can give 600 watts RMS to each speaker then don't run the amp into the ground. A 1200 watt per channel at 4 ohms amp if your running both tops off 1 amp channel and each top is an 8 ohm speaker. Something to think about.
    As others have stated unless you have a ton of processing your desk is limited. There is much processing available in a modern Digital mixer and will improve your sound even with your current pa setup.
    Depending on what you have for tops I'd upgrade in steps. A new mixer first. A new set of powered subs 2nd. Nothing adds power and athority to a system like proper low end. Without a good sub system the best tops still won't sound ok. With powered subs you could move your larger amp to your tops and your smaller amp to your monitor system. I would, ""again depending on what you have for tops now"" , put 1 side of your large amp on subs and the other on tops now. I am guessing you are Bi-Amping your current setup now correct? Also if your not now try putting your subs together in the center or to one side. Coupling subs may give you better results than your getting now should you be placing them in a L/R configuration. Try it as it cost you nothing.
   Let us know what you have for current tops now. Take your time and keep researching. Your miles above some post I've seen here that basicly go "" I've just purchased this new system and it doesn't give me what I need ....""
   When you have an idea as to what you want shop around and then give Mike Pyle here a list of items you may want to purchase. Very good person. I'm small time but he always took the time to answer questions and gave me a great price. Even with small purchase amounts. Should he not carry an item put a Wanted to Buy post in the market place here. There may be someone who will carry it and treat you great also.

Kindest Regards;
Douglas R. Allen
 
   
 

 

[Debbie Dunkley]

I agree that mics and speakers should normally be your first priority....
However, I have used 2 Behringer (analog) mixers  in the past and both sounded horrible - just horrible. No substance in the sound at all and I could imagine even with using a high quality mic and good speakers, as Scott said, the mixer would suck the life out of the sound- so no 'real' improvement till the 3 pieces have been addressed - Mics (if needed), Mixer and Speakers.
It's tough to know where to start really but as each piece of the system is upgraded, you will notice some improvement.
Starting with one stack as was suggested and has been suggested many times, is always a good compromise and then add the other side when money allows. One side of decent quality sound is MUCH better than 2 sides of inferior quality. Good luck!

[Scott Bolt]

I agree that mics and speakers should normally be your first priority....
However, I have used 2 Behringer (analog) mixers  in the past and both sounded horrible - just horrible. No substance in the sound at all and I could imagine even with using a high quality mic and good speakers, as Scott said, the mixer would suck the life out of the sound- so no 'real' improvement till the 3 pieces have been addressed - Mics (if needed), Mixer and Speakers.
It's tough to know where to start really but as each piece of the system is upgraded, you will notice some improvement.
Starting with one stack as was suggested and has been suggested many times, is always a good compromise and then add the other side when money allows. One side of decent quality sound is MUCH better than 2 sides of inferior quality. Good luck!

Debbie has a point.

Perhaps the order should be:

1) Better tops
2) Better Mixer
3) Better subs

For great quality sound with ample channel count for most bar bands, I would suggest the Ui24.  It runs around 1K and has 20 inputs.  If you need more inputs than 20, let me know and I'll make another suggestion since the Ui24 to the best of my understanding can not be expanded in channel count (someone correct me if I am wrong).

[Dan Moos]

Great advice guys. The situation has changed in the last 24 hours. Drummer (band leader, and guy with the most funds by far) went rogue in a good way and bought some QSC powered mains, and some QSC powered subs.

Not sure exactly which mains (we've been texting, and not all has been clear), but the subs are KS112s. We are curious if a single KS118 would be better. Its for sure heavier, but inline with our old sub's weight. We play small/ sometimes medium/ sometimes outdoor gigs. I want a natural kick drum sound that you can feel. I believe our kick mic is the AKG d112.

We certainly got our money's worth out of the old rig many times over.

New console is a common thread I'm getting here. That's an eventual plan, but not yet. Thing is huge, but has worked well. We run our own sound (console is on stage), which has obvious disadvantages, but we get the whole band and rig on some pretty tight stages successfully. When we got it, digital consoles at our price point were not what they are now.

[John L Nobile]

Great advice guys. The situation has changed in the last 24 hours. Drummer (band leader, and guy with the most funds by far) went rogue in a good way and bought some QSC powered mains, and some QSC powered subs.

Not sure exactly which mains (we've been texting, and not all has been clear), but the subs are KS112s. We are curious if a single KS118 would be better. Its for sure heavier, but inline with our old sub's weight. We play small/ sometimes medium/ sometimes outdoor gigs. I want a natural kick drum sound that you can feel. I believe our kick mic is the AKG d112.

We certainly got our money's worth out of the old rig many times over.

New console is a common thread I'm getting here. That's an eventual plan, but not yet. Thing is huge, but has worked well. We run our own sound (console is on stage), which has obvious disadvantages, but we get the whole band and rig on some pretty tight stages successfully. When we got it, digital consoles at our price point were not what they are now.

Makes even more sense to have an XR18 or similar. That way you can run offstage with a pad and make changes during soundcheck or even the gig. They're not expensive either.

[Dan Moos]

New board is inevitable, but probably on the next round. I concur with all advice on going digital thought.

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