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[Dan Moos]

My band is your typical weekend warrior rock group. 99% of our gigs, we supply our own PA. I would say we get mostly satisfactory sound, but we are running at the limits of the system's capability to get clean sound. Also, the system is roughly 11 years old of hard gigging, often in rough environments. We have some money to upgrade, but want to do so intelligently, or not at all. The system is adequate, so if we need to spend allot to move the needle noticeably, we can hold off.

Here's what we have. Trigger warning, it's mostly from an often mocked manufacturer.

48 channel Berringer board. We're happy with it.

2 JBL MR  925 speakers. They  seem to sound decent, but need repair often lately. They are pretty old.

 Two full range peavy speakers that I can't remember the model of. They are our go-to mains, but don't really impress me.

Two passive Berringer 18" subs. They are whatever berringer was selling ten years ago. They have NEVER impressed me.

One berringer ep2500 amp. We typically run the mains on this. Either a peavy in each half, or a peavy and a jbl in parallel I each half.

One berringer ep4000. I run the subs in parallel on one half of it, and use the other half for monitors.

One unused berringer ep4000.

One berringer crossover, set around 100 Hz

Ok, that's the bulk of it. My biggest areas of complaint are, headroom in general, clarity, and underwhelming subs.

I'm especially curious if those berringer subs are our biggest liability. We have far more wattage in unused amps than we currently can use with them, but they really don't impress at all. I'm open to critique on how I'm running them. I'm just a hack really.

We are considering powered speakers, but I am leery of any lower cost class D amp. Every good sounding powered sub I've seen weighs a ton (maybe that's what it's gonna take). We are probably looking for mid priced stuff. No more berringer, but no QSC  or like priced. Yamaha level of price maybe?

 

[Scott Holtzman]

My band is your typical weekend warrior rock group. 99% of our gigs, we supply our own PA. I would say we get mostly satisfactory sound, but we are running at the limits of the system's capability to get clean sound. Also, the system is roughly 11 years old of hard gigging, often in rough environments. We have some money to upgrade, but want to do so intelligently, or not at all. The system is adequate, so if we need to spend allot to move the needle noticeably, we can hold off.

Here's what we have. Trigger warning, it's mostly from an often mocked manufacturer.

48 channel Berringer board. We're happy with it.

2 JBL MR  925 speakers. They  seem to sound decent, but need repair often lately. They are pretty old.

 Two full range peavy speakers that I can't remember the model of. They are our go-to mains, but don't really impress me.

Two passive Berringer 18" subs. They are whatever berringer was selling ten years ago. They have NEVER impressed me.

One berringer ep2500 amp. We typically run the mains on this. Either a peavy in each half, or a peavy and a jbl in parallel I each half.

One berringer ep4000. I run the subs in parallel on one half of it, and use the other half for monitors.

One unused berringer ep4000.

One berringer crossover, set around 100 Hz

Ok, that's the bulk of it. My biggest areas of complaint are, headroom in general, clarity, and underwhelming subs.

I'm especially curious if those berringer subs are our biggest liability. We have far more wattage in unused amps than we currently can use with them, but they really don't impress at all. I'm open to critique on how I'm running them. I'm just a hack really.

We are considering powered speakers, but I am leery of any lower cost class D amp. Every good sounding powered sub I've seen weighs a ton (maybe that's what it's gonna take). We are probably looking for mid priced stuff. No more berringer, but no QSC  or like priced. Yamaha level of price maybe?

Good Yamaha subs are more than QSC?

What do you consider heavy?

Are the Behringer subs covered in carpet?  If they are they are the low end ones and worthless.  If they are B1800D's some options exist.  I ran four of those with four EP2500's for years (older version of the EP4000 same power output.  The EP4000 arw really about an 1800w bridged amo,)

You need to give us model numbers.  Peavey made many speakers over the years.

The amps are heavy but serviceable.

That 48 channel board needs to go in the bin.  It's silly bug, how many channels do you need?  A small digital board will lower your footprint and give huge benefits in sound as you will have comps, Gates and parametric EQ on each channel.

You only have one monitor mix?  How do you deal with that?

I am surprised the venues have not complained about that huge board.

Do you have a sound person?  Mixing from stage, the lack of sufficient monitors has to be compromising your performance.

With all due respect your message was poorly done.  You didn't provide model numbers, venue sizes, size of band, musical style or your expectations. Seems like you approach your sound reinforcement in the same way so no wonder the poor results.  This isn't just a gear problem.

Investing in production, both process and gear is a key step in moving forward artistically.   

Realize this is a forum of professionals, there are folks from small cover bands to touring pros with artists you have heard of in the largest arenas in the world.

The common bond is we all have an unwaving commitment to excellence.  If you want to invest in defining your needs, budget and process to develop a plan then you have come to the right place.  If you are seeking model numbers to simply make a purchase you will likely have very poor results.

[Mal Brown]

ditto that and...  please spend some time in the lounge forum and read.  that is where you'll find most of the small sound co and bands hanging.  lot's of relevant info there.

on a complete shot in the dark... I personally have done a metric ton of shows using a QSC K series rig.  I have a couple of K12's out on rental most every weekend. The stuff sound is OK and they are near to indestructible.  some folks slag 'em. they've been lgreat for me.

[Luke Geis]

The big thing is that your inventory is all at essentially the same level ( MI grade & entry-level ) so spending only a small amount of money is not going to really improve your results too much. The whole your only as good as your weakest link sort of thing. You can improve a couple of things and it will fix only that portion of the system, but there is really nothing that will fix the whole thing.

Not knowing the subs spec, I would venture a bet they would do more for you if they were running from the spare EP4000 and set up to run one sub per channel. You should gain a little headroom and at least not be working the amp as hard that way.

I know you like your current mixer, but you can go a very LOOOOOONG way by having a mixer that you can actually do some sort of tone shaping with and it will help immensely in getting a cleaner more controlled sound. Not to mention many of the Behringer options have much of the system processing you need built-in. A used X32 compact or producer is affordable and will take you light years ahead of your current analog get-up.

If you can swing it, a new set of powered mains will also help greatly in attaining headroom and clarity. They will at least make the job easier. I am not a QSC fan, but a mid-level EV EKX will spank the crap out of anything you currently own.

Subs are a huge toss-up. While the ones you have now may not be impressive, you can get them to work with the right tools. A mixer like the X32 has the tools needed to take them much further. Another thing that will help with the subs is to get them on an aux. Subs on Aux is a great way to get more control out of subs and you can get lots more oomph and headroom out of them by doing so.

Between a digital mixer, putting the subs on an aux with a slightly bigger amp and new mains, you should see the biggest jump in performance for the least money. Not knowing what the budget is, I would guess you could get that for around $2k with open box and or lightly used prices. Getting much better for cheaper would be hard to accomplish. While there are decent speakers that are much cheaper, they are cheaper for a reason. And if you think that is expensive, just imagine buying multitudes of speakers that cost $2k+ each!

[Bradford "BJ" James]

Sell all, get a pair of new or used powered speakers (DZR12 etc) and a small digital mixer (TM16 etc). Add subs when you can.

[Mike Caldwell]

At this point what are you considering your budget is to invest in a new system?

Also consider a system is not just made up of fancy speakers and mixers, you also need proper audio and power cabling, stands, cases, racks, mics ect.
You also want the system packaged so it goes together quick and as simple as possible not pulling a bunch of tangled cables out of milk crate and figuring out what works every time you set up.

All of the extra non glamorous yet needed equipment cost money.

[Chris Grimshaw]

Some notes:

- Definitely upgrade the mixer. I'm certain you don't need 48x channels, and the digital feature set will open up a lot of options for you, on one condition: you learn how to use it properly.

- Definitely upgrade the cabinets. Now, you've a choice to make here. You could move across to an all-active main PA system, but I'd suggest that'd be more expensive than using passive cabinets and keeping your amp rack. Your call. Active speakers are difficult to break (there's a lot of processing that stops you over-driving anything), and will usually sound about as good as is possible for the drivers that are installed. If you stay with a passive system, you'll need a speaker processor (I'd grab a DCX2496) and someone that can set it up for you.

- I'd look carefully at your mic collection and see if there are any weak points there. IMO, a decent mic is the quickest and (often) cheapest way of improving the sound from a PA system.

- I've seen mention of stage monitors, but it's not obvious what you're using. For vocal/GTR monitoring, 10" drivers will do fine. If you want something more meaty, move to 12"s. 15" monitors won't be necessary for what you're doing. The new mixing desk will make it so you can each have your own monitor mix.
It looks like you don't have enough amplifiers to run all those monitors, so I'd go active for those.


Chris

[Taylor Hall]

Your first step should be identifying the shortcomings (performance notwithstanding) of your current system and prioritizing what improvements can be made.

For example, replacing the large analog board with a more compact digital model or even rack-mounted model, swapping out the EP amps for something more lightweight, replacing the Peavey tops or Behringer subs for something powered or more modern and efficient, etc etc.

Most anything you get that's been made in the past few years will probably be a noticeable improvement in the speaker department, but be aware that replacing just one facet (ie subs or mains) can immediately reveal the difference in performance so don't try to push the old gear to match the new, you'll just release the magic smoke.

Knowing what you budget is and what key areas you would like to improve would also go a long way to helping us know what to recommend.

[scottstephens]

Dan,

Upgrades are nice. But establish a budget and buy the best you can. Maybe rent a few things for a couple of shows and see if you like them. Always add 20% to your budget just because. Check out the older posts on this site for gear recommendations and think about buying some used stuff.

Scott

[Sean Zurbrick]

FWIW, here's an example of a solid budget focused PA that would suit most weekend warrior bands. The MAP price is "minimum advertised price" vendors are allowed to make public. The "street" is what you can get the item for if you look around/negotiate. Usually 15%-20% off MAP. The prices I used for street are ones I found online and include "B-Stock", which is often just a way to advertise below the MAP price and carries a full warranty (check with the vendor first though). There are vendors that hang out on this forum you can contact and they can put a package price together for you.

[ProSoundWeb Community]