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Author Topic: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.  (Read 2797 times)

Douglas R. Allen

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2019, 03:17:02 pm »

In a dual channel FFT measurement system using the singer's microphone will result in no change in the display, because it IS part of the loop.  The reference signal from the console will match up with measurement mic.

Perhaps someone from Clair or Mr Jackson's audio crew will see this and explain...

With Smaart on Spectro you'll see feedback long before you'll hear it just soloing the vocal microphone. M/X32 have it and it works quite well. No FFT needed. Surely they have that for Mr. Jackson? Unless I'm reading your reply wrong.
Douglas R. Allen
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Jason Glass

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2019, 03:59:14 pm »

I’m not sure I would agree with that.  Ultimately it’s gain before feedback is totally down to the microphone polar response and monitor position.  An omni mic is going to give a different view, that may or may not share any coherence with that of the vocal mic, particularly with it being tapped to the main microphone.  I fail to see any advantage.

Perhaps I can persuade you that measurements from two different perspectives are more informative than one?  And that knowledge is power?

How in the world could anyone argue that more information about the conditions occurring at the point of interest is less advantageous than less?

I should also add that Mr. Jackson has well earned a high place as a "challenging artist" among top-tier Nashville audio engineers.  For a long, long time.  Understand that that comment is excessively kind and forgivingly professional.  I've seen Punko go to heroic measures to artist-proof an impossibly awesome SPL and superb vocal quality at performance position just to then watch Mr. Artist find that one and only head & hat position that focuses his wedges into the mic and then repeatedly and willfully caused feedback while he chastised one of the best professionals in the biz.  At multiple gigs.  I mean twisting his head around in completely unnatural positions to "talk to the band" between verses and obviously dwelling where it's worst-case.  All while commanding him to "turn me up."

That tandem mic might very well be a psychological tool and nothing more.  That's the kind of gig that it is.  But I doubt it.  That crew is and long has been the cat's meow of skill.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 04:38:26 pm by Jason Glass »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2019, 04:05:48 pm »

Perhaps this is a microphone used as the Grateful Dead did years ago....?
Douglas R. Allen
The "deads" setup was different.

In order for it to work, the mics must be identical, and you just sing into one of them.

Here we are talking about completely different types and patterns and freq response of the mics, plus he is singing "essentially" into both of them
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2019, 04:28:05 pm »

It could also be a measurement mic for the FOH engineer. (probably more likely)
A lot of artists don't like how FOH sound affects their sound on stage (too much low end build-up, etc) and from FOH these issues can't be properly heard. But, with that mic in place, he/she can view how the FOH mix is affecting the on-stage sound, and in this case, right where the money channel is. I think that's valuable information for FOH.
I have had conversations with several FOH engineers and system techs who talk about the extreme lengths they have to go to not influence the on-stage sound to keep the artist happy. Even to the point of compromising the mix for the audience. It happens a lot more than you think!

If that's what it's for in this case, that would make sense, and it's actually a fantastic idea.
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-Andy

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Roland Clarke

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2019, 04:31:28 pm »

Threads like these fuel my love/hate of PSW. :D (It's mostly love, but every so often things get to be too much)

Over the course of 16 posts and a photo, we've almost fully convinced ourselves that this set-up is ugly and that it can't possibly work. Yet, I'm guessing 'ole Mr. Jackson has done more than his fair share of shows, and I'm guessing that he likely has a regular crew that he works with and trusts.

I'll further venture that whatever they're doing works well for them and suits their specific needs. But the PSW crew has postured that most of the set-up is ridiculous and likely serves little purpose/value. We don't know if his vocal line is being split into SMAART, and the measurement mic is being used for measurement purposes... we really don't know much, other than what we can see in the photo.

Jason's reply is great, and if I were to chime in with my own story/hypothesis, it would probably follow his.

Funny how so many times in real life something that "on paper" (or "online") shouldn't work, works perfectly and does exactly as intended. Yet we debate, and armchair QB, and whatnot. I've followed a lot of threads on here that are conversely "over the top" and found that other than spending a lot of time and money, the results weren't different from the easier way to do the job.

Anywho... end of my little side rant/opinion. Ultimately, I gain a lot more from these forums than otherwise. But I do chuckle from time-to-time with all of the distant arm-chairing.

Thanks for letting me vent. :)

Well let me reciprocate.

This a forum for people to discuss, digest, speculate, pass comments, advice and hypothesise.  As a 40 year vet of the business Im experienced enough to know how little any of us really know, but Im certainly more than an armchair critic and I dont buy into pseudo science.  I know many people in this game, some with impressive CVs who arent necessarily great engineers, but have other skill sets that have helped their careers. 

The comments passed by the various members of this forums, some with very extensive experience calling into question something that is potentially a practice with dubious benefit.  We all know the cowboy hat problem, if the measurement mic was tapped to the vocal mic in some way to measure comb filtering and reflected frequency effects it would likely be of little use.

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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2019, 04:34:23 pm »

The "deads" setup was different.

In order for it to work, the mics must be identical, and you just sing into one of them.

Here we are talking about completely different types and patterns and freq response of the mics, plus he is singing "essentially" into both of them

Why I mentioned it was I've heard of using an omni microphone just for that. Seems to be preferred.
Found it here.

https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-why-do-i-sometimes-see-singers-using-two-microphones-stage

    "Both microphones must be able to hear the sound source directly. If they are cardioids, they both need to face the sound source, although this is more usually done with omnidirectional microphones, for the following reasons. The ambient noise, being inherently diffuse sound, will be captured equally in level by both mics; their spacing will make no significant difference to the ambient sound level they capture. By contrast, the wanted sound will be in the near field of both mics and, provided the front mic is very close to the sound source (ie. near the lips of the vocalist), the inverse square law of sound‑energy dispersion means that the more distant mic will receive significantly less energy from the close sound source than the front mic will."

Could be what they are doing.

Douglas R. Allen

:edit: Struggling with the translation. It could mean "both be omni" in which case I'm wrong...  :-[
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 04:37:21 pm by Douglas R. Allen »
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Tim Weaver

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2019, 06:27:58 pm »

Hahaha. It could be anything.


It COULD be a talkback mic for the musicians. Maybe when he talks to the band he turns around and looks at them. THe B58 being a hyperC mic, the vocal falls out of the pattern and band members can't understand. So monitor guy tapes an omni to the mic, and et voila, problem solved!



Or it could be for that persistant taper in the crowd who has every AJ concert methodically stored away on DAT cassettes back at his apartment. Besides the main mix he gets an an omni capture right from the source so he can hear what it's like to be the man himself!

Or maybe every mic stand has an omni on it for the world's most complicated ambience mic system!



Seriously, it could be anything, but since AJ is an aging country star on wedges it makes a LOT of sense to think that the ME is using that mic to help him in some way. Probably with smaart.
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Andrew Broughton

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2019, 06:49:28 pm »

I think my suggestion makes the most sense, and something that could be quite useful.
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-Andy

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Jamin Lynch

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2019, 07:25:21 pm »



Here's a close-up photo of this setup (or an older version of it; recent photos put the 58 on top using some kind of custom clip), and now I'm curious too. Sure does look like an omni of some kind. Some kind of recording reference, maybe? A different vocal feed for the band's IEMs?

What do you have against pretty waterfalls? :D

-Russ

That is one large radar dish ya know ;)

The last time I saw him he had 4 wedges. I believe it was 2 for vocals, 2 for instruments.
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Russell Ault

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2019, 07:30:53 pm »

:edit: Struggling with the translation. It could mean "both be omni" in which case I'm wrong...  :-[

The principle here is to have background noise arrive at the pair of mics and produce two signals of equal amplitude and in time. Reversing the polarity on one of those mics will then cause that background noise to cancel. To achieve that you need two identical mics (typically both omnis).

-Russ
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2019, 07:30:53 pm »


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