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Author Topic: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.  (Read 2790 times)

Landon Lewsaw

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2019, 01:32:05 pm »

Uggh, that looks bad.  Haven't seen mics taped together like that since the 70s.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2019, 02:30:37 pm »

Looks like a Beta 58 and a cowboy hat.  Marriage made in hell.

Did a show recently with a similar 'vintage' of performer, similar presentation.  That guy has hearing problems and uses a big ol' pile of wedges.  If his vocal isn't right on the edge of uncontrolled feedback, he's not happy.

I can envision the measurement mic feeding a spectrogram display and the monitor guy looking for 'trends' in the ripples that indicate feedback about to take off.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Douglas R. Allen

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2019, 05:25:21 pm »



I can envision the measurement mic feeding a spectrogram display and the monitor guy looking for 'trends' in the ripples that indicate feedback about to take off.


What would be the advantage over just solo feeding the vocal channel to a RTA, Smaart etc.? I'm guessing the correction would be in the monitor eq's regardless it would show up in his vocal microphone. That's how I ring out the monitors and check the microphones during a performance. I can't think of any real advantage to the Omni response of the measurement microphone placed there. I'm thinking it would be just as easy to place the measurement mic at the monitor if that was the case using spectrograph and looking for trends. Only other thing is as it a omni it could be for a "room/accustic guitar pickup" microphone for his IEM's but unsure if there would be phasing issues although they could be using a plug-in for that.  Anyone know who is out with him?

Douglas R. Allen

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Simon Lewis

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2019, 06:09:29 pm »

Whatever its purpose, the "measurement" style mic won't be exhibiting a true omni response with the tape and '58 that close...
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Roland Clarke

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2019, 06:18:33 pm »

Iím with Douglas on this one.  To take care of potential feedback, the best mic to pick off for SMAART would be the vocal mic itself.  It might be being used for a general vocal pick-up, but Iím not sure there would be much advantage to it.
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Jason Glass

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2019, 08:38:40 am »

I’m with Douglas on this one.  To take care of potential feedback, the best mic to pick off for SMAART would be the vocal mic itself.  It might be being used for a general vocal pick-up, but I’m not sure there would be much advantage to it.

The savvy monitor engineer, especially one working with an artist who wears a cowboy hat, carefully places a cardioid or hypercardioid vocal microphone so that its pattern nulls point toward the monitor wedges, intentionally rejecting as much of the monitor signal as possible while isolating the vocal signal as much as possible, to reduce the chances of feedback.  If the engineer wishes to analyze the interaction of reflections from the hat and face of the performer with the signal coming from the wedges, an omnidirectional mic is much more suitable for that purpose.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2019, 08:42:15 am by Jason Glass »
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Roland Clarke

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2019, 12:34:32 pm »

Iím not sure I would agree with that.  Ultimately itís gain before feedback is totally down to the microphone polar response and monitor position.  An omni mic is going to give a different view, that may or may not share any coherence with that of the vocal mic, particularly with it being tapped to the main microphone.  I fail to see any advantage.
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Steve Litscher

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2019, 02:27:35 pm »

Threads like these fuel my love/hate of PSW. :D (It's mostly love, but every so often things get to be too much)

Over the course of 16 posts and a photo, we've almost fully convinced ourselves that this set-up is ugly and that it can't possibly work. Yet, I'm guessing 'ole Mr. Jackson has done more than his fair share of shows, and I'm guessing that he likely has a regular crew that he works with and trusts.

I'll further venture that whatever they're doing works well for them and suits their specific needs. But the PSW crew has postured that most of the set-up is ridiculous and likely serves little purpose/value. We don't know if his vocal line is being split into SMAART, and the measurement mic is being used for measurement purposes... we really don't know much, other than what we can see in the photo.

Jason's reply is great, and if I were to chime in with my own story/hypothesis, it would probably follow his.

Funny how so many times in real life something that "on paper" (or "online") shouldn't work, works perfectly and does exactly as intended. Yet we debate, and armchair QB, and whatnot. I've followed a lot of threads on here that are conversely "over the top" and found that other than spending a lot of time and money, the results weren't different from the easier way to do the job.

Anywho... end of my little side rant/opinion. Ultimately, I gain a lot more from these forums than otherwise. But I do chuckle from time-to-time with all of the distant arm-chairing.

Thanks for letting me vent. :)

Douglas R. Allen

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2019, 03:02:18 pm »

The savvy monitor engineer, especially one working with an artist who wears a cowboy hat, carefully places a cardioid or hypercardioid vocal microphone so that its pattern nulls point toward the monitor wedges, intentionally rejecting as much of the monitor signal as possible while isolating the vocal signal as much as possible, to reduce the chances of feedback.  If the engineer wishes to analyze the interaction of reflections from the hat and face of the performer with the signal coming from the wedges, an omnidirectional mic is much more suitable for that purpose.

In general feedback is a loop between the microphone being sung into and the monitor in question feeding back while suppling the same signal. The omni microphone, if it is indeed an omni microphone,  would not be returned back to the monitor so its effective out of the feedback loop. So the "feedback" it is hearing would have to be to level that Mr. Jackson could hear as well. Not good. It would not be in the feedback loop so spectrograph may not be as sensitive to the impending ring that the vocal microphone may be on the verge of. Perhaps this is a microphone used as the Grateful Dead did years ago....?  Could there be another reason for the microphone other than looking for feedback?

Douglas R. Allen
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2019, 03:11:47 pm »

In general feedback is a loop between the microphone being sung into and the monitor in question feeding back while suppling the same signal. The omni microphone, if it is indeed an omni microphone,  would not be returned back to the monitor so its effective out of the feedback loop. So the "feedback" it is hearing would have to be to level that Mr. Jackson could hear as well. Not good. It would not be in the feedback loop so spectrograph may not be as sensitive to the impending ring that the vocal microphone may be on the verge of. Perhaps this is a microphone used as the Grateful Dead did years ago....?  Could there be another reason for the microphone other than looking for feedback?

Douglas R. Allen

In a dual channel FFT measurement system using the singer's microphone will result in no change in the display, because it IS part of the loop.  The reference signal from the console will match up with measurement mic.

Perhaps someone from Clair or Mr Jackson's audio crew will see this and explain...
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Alan Jackson at Red Rocks.
¬ę Reply #19 on: October 21, 2019, 03:11:47 pm ¬Ľ


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