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[Debbie Dunkley]

So Debbie, Frank is spot on,  Measure, adjust, measure again.  You seem to be in a bit of shock or overwhelmed by everything in a desire to get it perfect.   You other system wasn't perfect either and the setting were hidden deep from you.  Nothing has really changed other than they are more expensive.  They will sound great with your presets.  That is a starting place and you can move forward from there.  It is doubtful with your skillful ear you will damage anything even without limiters. 

My advice, get a few gigs under your belt and enjoy them.  Get to know them, how little EQ is required to get them to sound good.  Most important have fun.

After that, get some measurement software (SMAART is the gold standard of course by Audiotools on an iPad with the measurement mic is great and REW is free and will give you phase and magnitude info).  Post the traces and everyone will help you learn about system optimization.  It's just another step in your journey.  No need to sweat it.

I have never used measurement tools personally so it would be good to get some help there - Scott isn't far from me and at some point I'd like to get with him and go over fine tuning what I have. Till then, I'm quite happy with what I've done so far and I have everything ready to go. No shows this weekend - visiting friends  in CA but 2 next weekend so I'll be using the rig for the first time.

[Taylor Hall]

I would second just playing around with REW to dip your toes in the measurement world. It's really straightforward to use and requires very minimal extra hardware (just a measurement mic and USB interface which you would need for a SMAART rig anyways) to get going. At the very least it will give you a usable response curve to see what's happ'nin and quickly identify anything your ears may have overlooked. Plus it's free software so that's always nice

[Tim McCulloch]

For which spot in the room, horizontally and/or vertically (in this case) are we aligning for?  Are we aligning for propagation delay differences between sub and top, or for the distance in height between the sub and top?

If the former, good.  If the latter... uh... which elevation is the alignment point?  Yes, as you change distance between sub and top there is a time change... but for whom and *does it matter*?

Likewise, one or two lucky people most benefit for a time alignment between center clustered subs and tops on each side - so pick the spot(s) or... heresy for sure - it doesn't matter nearly as much as all the hand waving and clutching of pearls would indicate.

Pick your spot (maybe you'll be the lucky person) but for everyone else in the room, it's a compromise of varying proportions.  There is no definitive answer.

Tim "Mr. Alignment" Mc, -Jamie Anderson Smaart class of 2004

[Scott Holtzman]

I have never used measurement tools personally so it would be good to get some help there - Scott isn't far from me and at some point I'd like to get with him and go over fine tuning what I have. Till then, I'm quite happy with what I've done so far and I have everything ready to go. No shows this weekend - visiting friends  in CA but 2 next weekend so I'll be using the rig for the first time.

Can't wait to hear reviews.  Travel safe

[Scott Holtzman]

For which spot in the room, horizontally and/or vertically (in this case) are we aligning for?  Are we aligning for propagation delay differences between sub and top, or for the distance in height between the sub and top?

If the former, good.  If the latter... uh... which elevation is the alignment point?  Yes, as you change distance between sub and top there is a time change... but for whom and *does it matter*?

Likewise, one or two lucky people most benefit for a time alignment between center clustered subs and tops on each side - so pick the spot(s) or... heresy for sure - it doesn't matter nearly as much as all the hand waving and clutching of pearls would indicate.

Pick your spot (maybe you'll be the lucky person) but for everyone else in the room, it's a compromise of varying proportions.  There is no definitive answer.

Tim "Mr. Alignment" Mc, -Jamie Anderson Smaart class of 2004

Tim,  it's data, right now she is inputting numbers with little context.  Now she can visualize the interaction.  As Frank pointed out, near field.

[Robert Lunceford]

I have never used measurement tools personally so it would be good to get some help there - Scott isn't far from me and at some point I'd like to get with him and go over fine tuning what I have. Till then, I'm quite happy with what I've done so far and I have everything ready to go. No shows this weekend - visiting friends  in CA but 2 next weekend so I'll be using the rig for the first time.

The Danley FAQ page explains how to align the top with the sub without the need for measurement tools It is done by just using your ears and reversing the phase of the subwoofer.
What part of California are you visiting?

[Tim McCulloch]

Tim,  it's data, right now she is inputting numbers with little context.  Now she can visualize the interaction.  As Frank pointed out, near field.

Hi Scott, my point is that *some* alignment is very valuable, some less so, and some is close to pointless.  It's up to the user to decide but as was pointed out up-thread, *vertical* distance changes of the magnitude we're discussing here get close to the pointless.  In arenas with both flown and ground stacked subs it's another matter (and opportunity to beam-steer some sub energy) but when we're talking a couple of feet, there is not a significant improvement to be had at the point of acoustic crossover WRT coverage.

Align for a mythical planar wave front from the tops and subs, irrespective of the fairly small distance between them.  I promise you all there will be no improvement in coverage except at *ONE* vertical location in the listening area.  Is it worth the effort?  Maybe, but for everyone else in the room it makes zero, zip, nada difference and anything that changes the sub v top arrival times at the ears of any random listener will negate the effort.

I've spent 15 years making measurements and the key to them is to know what can be improved via measurement and what is folly.  Y'all are taking the fun and new discovery out of Debbie's new system by suggesting she *needs* to do stuff that frankly is like a British fox hunt - the unspeakable in full pursuit of the inedible (metaphorically, anyway).

None of this is necessary for her to take out the new rig and enjoy mixing on it, receive compliments on the rig, and otherwise not be swallowed up in efforts unnecessary to the debut of the system.

The Danley FAQ page explains how to align the top with the sub without the need for measurement tools It is done by just using your ears and reversing the phase of the subwoofer.
What part of California are you visiting?

^^^ THIS RIGHT HERE.  Thank you for being the voice of simplicity, Robert.

[Jonathan Betts]

I’m right there with Tim and others on this one. I just normally role with numbers that the fine folks at Danley provided me. My rig sounds great outdoors and in nice sounding halls. If the system sounds bad I know it’s either the band or the room or both. If I have time or the curiosity I may measure. It rarely makes a difference sonically either way.  IMO, for  my level of production it’s a waist of time.

[Frank Koenig]

No one is suggesting that we go into a gig and try to design the sub/top crossover from scratch. That is why it is useful to have a reference delay (my term) that assumes the sub and top are equidistant from the listener. In the absence of good measurement conditions this can be approximately VERIFIED by near-field measurement. If what you get is way off from the published settings it will be highly informative to figure out why. (With all the DSP and digital interconnects we use these days it is not impossible, even for experts, to screw up somewhere.) Furthermore, knowing the reference delay lets you estimate a reasonable sub/top delay in situations where the desired sweet spot is not equidistant from the speakers. You can use a range finder, tape measure, a mic cable, your shoes, or your eyeballs to come up with a reasonable estimate. And while not perfect throughout the venue it is still better to be within, say, +/- 120 deg (which theoretically results in a 6 dB magnitude variation) than to be 180 deg out.

I've read plenty about system alignment and attended numerous seminars on the subject (most recently two weeks ago at AES in New York) and one theme that remains constant is that the main purpose of in-the-field measurement is to verify proper system operation. Never was it said that because we can't align within 1 deg everywhere that system alignment is useless and we shouldn't even bother. Flogging a dead horse.

--Frank

[Debbie Dunkley]

The Danley FAQ page explains how to align the top with the sub without the need for measurement tools It is done by just using your ears and reversing the phase of the subwoofer.
What part of California are you visiting?

Temecula and San Diego. We used to live there.

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