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Author Topic: Presentation on spectrum issues  (Read 4410 times)

Jonathan Novick

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Presentation on spectrum issues
« on: September 19, 2019, 10:12:39 AM »

I recently gave a presentation with Michael Abbott regarding the crowding of the RF spectrum and things that can be done about it. There was only so much detail that could be covered in the time allotted and I tried to keep this from getting too technical. However, it gives a good overview of how the RF environment has changed, how it is impacting the industry and why the solutions aren't simple (or cheap). Some of you may find it helpful to share this when dealing with those that just don't understand things. Yes, there is a bit of a plug for the Alteros system towards the end but I have tried to keep that part more about the technology behind it. I hope some of you find it worthwhile nonetheless.

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Dan Mortensen

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Re: Presentation on spectrum issues
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2019, 09:30:10 PM »

I recently gave a presentation with Michael Abbott regarding the crowding of the RF spectrum and things that can be done about it....



This was on my "to watch" list since I first saw this post, and I just finished watching. Thanks for posting the link.

A few questions:

1) Are there both hand helds and belt packs available with it?

2) What heads/mics are available with it? If I have specific heads that I want to use, is that possible?

3) On my listening system at least, there was a considerable amount of distortion on your mic but not on Michael's, as near as I could tell. Where did it come from?

4) Are the licenses for different transmitter numbers lifetime or annual?

5) I couldn't really tell from the slides & haven't looked for the product online: how big is the base station?

6) This video was the first place I've heard of a proposal to wipe out (for our purposes) all the UHF spectrum under 512MHz; where is this coming from? Any ideas how likely that our considerable investment in those frequencies will disappear in three or four years?

6a) If the government keeps wiping out our investments with such regularity and lack of concern for us, why should we invest in the technology at all? Maybe I should just stick with loudspeakers and other non-wireless hardware...

Thanks again for posting this thought-provoking video.
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Mac Kerr

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Alteros
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2019, 11:05:56 PM »

This was on my "to watch" list since I first saw this post, and I just finished watching. Thanks for posting the link.

A few questions:

1) Are there both hand helds and belt packs available with it?

2) What heads/mics are available with it? If I have specific heads that I want to use, is that possible?

3) On my listening system at least, there was a considerable amount of distortion on your mic but not on Michael's, as near as I could tell. Where did it come from?

4) Are the licenses for different transmitter numbers lifetime or annual?

5) I couldn't really tell from the slides & haven't looked for the product online: how big is the base station?

6) This video was the first place I've heard of a proposal to wipe out (for our purposes) all the UHF spectrum under 512MHz; where is this coming from? Any ideas how likely that our considerable investment in those frequencies will disappear in three or four years?

6a) If the government keeps wiping out our investments with such regularity and lack of concern for us, why should we invest in the technology at all? Maybe I should just stick with loudspeakers and other non-wireless hardware...

Thanks again for posting this thought-provoking video.

Alteros is part of AudioTechnica. AFAIK all the mics available with it are AT mics. There are both HH and Lav transmitters. The system uses a distributed antenna system and very low power RF, it will not make it through walls. It has been in a video studio in lower Manhattan since well before last year's AES convention, where I was first shown it. Check out the website.   https://www.alteros.tech

Mac
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: Alteros
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2019, 01:35:45 AM »

Alteros is part of AudioTechnica. AFAIK all the mics available with it are AT mics.

Thanks, Mac, I guess everybody but me knows that because it wasn't in the presentation at all.

In some ways the system seems pretty cool.

One of its advantages is that "there is no need for spectrum coordination"; that seems like it would only last until other mfrs jump into that spectrum, too; with a 24 transmitter (not sure if that's the nomenclature appropriate for the microphone/IEM part of it) limit per room or outdoor area, spectrum could fill up quick. Having the coverage boundaries be limited to room size if desired is definitely a plus.

Any idea how much $$? The video said "per channel equivalent to a high end UHF system", or something like that. Aren't real-high-end systems about $7k per channel?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 01:38:15 AM by Dan Mortensen »
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Jason Glass

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Re: Alteros
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2019, 02:32:02 AM »

One of its advantages is that "there is no need for spectrum coordination"; that seems like it would only last until other mfrs jump into that spectrum, too; with a 24 transmitter (not sure if that's the nomenclature appropriate for the microphone/IEM part of it) limit per room or outdoor area, spectrum could fill up quick. Having the coverage boundaries be limited to room size if desired is definitely a plus.

It's a compromise, as so many things painfully are in RF.

Part of the technology's appeal is its extremely low TX power.  6.5 GHz doesn't penetrate structural materials well, and has more free space loss over distance than lower frequencies.  However, the receivers are super sensitive and can demodulate and decode carriers that are buried in the noise floor.  The "antennas" are actually complete transceivers that link together and communicate via a wired network that is independent from the RF portion of the links.  This allows a distributed antenna system that is comprised of small, overlapping coverage areas, and ultimately allows the system integrator to highly control their overall coverage plan and manage separate 24-channel systems in isolated performance areas.

There are reasons to believe that this spectral band will be available for years to come.  It's a licensed band for other high priority services at much higher TX power levels, such as law enforcement data links.  Not the kinds of users that the commission usually enjoys messing with.  IMHO, other mic MFG's will have an extremely hard time conforming to the ridiculously low TX power limits for Part 15 use without some of Alteros's strongly guarded and IP protected tech.

Ike Zimbel

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Re: Alteros
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2019, 08:54:18 AM »

It's a compromise, as so many things painfully are in RF.

Part of the technology's appeal is its extremely low TX power.  6.5 GHz doesn't penetrate structural materials well, and has more free space loss over distance than lower frequencies.  However, the receivers are super sensitive and can demodulate and decode carriers that are buried in the noise floor.  The "antennas" are actually complete transceivers that link together and communicate via a wired network that is independent from the RF portion of the links.  This allows a distributed antenna system that is comprised of small, overlapping coverage areas, and ultimately allows the system integrator to highly control their overall coverage plan and manage separate 24-channel systems in isolated performance areas.

There are reasons to believe that this spectral band will be available for years to come.  It's a licensed band for other high priority services at much higher TX power levels, such as law enforcement data links.  Not the kinds of users that the commission usually enjoys messing with.  IMHO, other mic MFG's will have an extremely hard time conforming to the ridiculously low TX power limits for Part 15 use without some of Alteros's strongly guarded and IP protected tech.
Just to add a few details: Multi-path is not an issue with the Alteros system, so the Tx signal can hit one antenna, or all 24 (or 32 or 64 if using the fiber system).
The "antennas" as Jason points out are actually transceivers that communicate, bi-directionally, with the transmitters. They send clock (so the AD is actually clocked right at the source) and other info to the pack/stick and receive the signal back. All of the RF happens in the transceiver, which is why the cabling is CAT-5 instead of low loss RF cable.
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: Presentation on spectrum issues
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2019, 01:01:08 PM »

Thanks for the thorough explanations of this technology, guys.

No one has yet addressed

"6) This video was the first place I've heard of a proposal to wipe out (for our purposes) all the UHF spectrum under 512MHz; where is this coming from? Any ideas how likely that our considerable investment in those frequencies will disappear in three or four years?

"6a) If the government keeps wiping out our investments with such regularity and lack of concern for us, why should we invest in the technology at all? Maybe I should just stick with loudspeakers and other non-wireless hardware..."

I've invested a bunch into ULX-D and other 470-512MHz gear, and it is rankling to realize what will happen if it becomes unusable within 10 years (7?) of purchase, and I can't imagine I'm alone in needing to buy new after the two recent repackings.

I'm wondering if we as sound providers need to unite and make "A Day Without Wireless" so the same people who find wireless mics so useful but want the available spectrum to shrink and shrink again can see the results of what they are driving? Maybe that's another thread...

Thanks again. See you at the AES?
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John Sulek

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Re: Presentation on spectrum issues
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2019, 01:30:15 PM »

Thanks for the thorough explanations of this technology, guys.

No one has yet addressed

"6) This video was the first place I've heard of a proposal to wipe out (for our purposes) all the UHF spectrum under 512MHz; where is this coming from? Any ideas how likely that our considerable investment in those frequencies will disappear in three or four years?

I believe that is part of the act of Congress mandating all the spectrum reallocation. The Middle Class Tax Relief and Job Creation Act of 2012.
There is a section regarding moving the public safety channels in the largest metropolitan areas out of the 470-512MHz spectrum they are currently in. ( the T band)
Not sure if this is still in the works.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2019, 01:36:20 PM by John Sulek »
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Henry Cohen

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Re: Presentation on spectrum issues
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2019, 02:51:14 PM »

6) This video was the first place I've heard of a proposal to wipe out (for our purposes) all the UHF spectrum under 512MHz; where is this coming from? Any ideas how likely that our considerable investment in those frequencies will disappear in three or four years?

This is coming from the same legislation (2012 Middle Class Jobs Act) that provided for the 600MHz auction. 470-512 MHz (aka "T-Band') is scheduled as of right now to go to auction no later than April 2021 with reallocation completed by 2023. However, the legislation on this point as conceived and currently written so flawed, it's quite likely it will be amended in some manner before the spring of 2021 so as to either postpone the date or repeal it altogether. Given the current primary stakeholders (Public Safety and PLMR) are giving significant push back, and the intended auction participants have little interest in this encumbered spectrum, proceeding with an auction at this time is looking less appetizing to both congress and FCC. The issue is certainly worth keeping on one's radar, but IMO it's not a certainty and I'm not planning on that spectrum going away in 2023.


Quote
6a) If the government keeps wiping out our investments with such regularity and lack of concern for us, why should we invest in the technology at all? Maybe I should just stick with loudspeakers and other non-wireless hardware...

That's business decision only you can make for your situation. There will always be clients who demand wireless production elements. If you can make a case for ROI in a sensible amount of time, then it's viable. As the allocation of >3GHz for UWB is a relatively new permitted use (15 years, as opposed to 80+ years for TV bands), given the growing number of >6GHz UWB products, and the fact that these products can co-locate with the primary licensed incumbents, this band allocation should remain in place long after you retire. The real question is how far can the technology be advanced and improved over time.
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Henry Cohen

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Dan Mortensen

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Re: Presentation on spectrum issues
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2019, 11:43:13 PM »

This is coming from the same legislation (2012 Middle Class Jobs Act) that provided for the 600MHz auction. 470-512 MHz (aka "T-Band') is scheduled as of right now to go to auction no later than April 2021 with reallocation completed by 2023. However, the legislation on this point as conceived and currently written so flawed, it's quite likely it will be amended in some manner before the spring of 2021 so as to either postpone the date or repeal it altogether. Given the current primary stakeholders (Public Safety and PLMR) are giving significant push back, and the intended auction participants have little interest in this encumbered spectrum, proceeding with an auction at this time is looking less appetizing to both congress and FCC. The issue is certainly worth keeping on one's radar, but IMO it's not a certainty and I'm not planning on that spectrum going away in 2023.


That's business decision only you can make for your situation. There will always be clients who demand wireless production elements. If you can make a case for ROI in a sensible amount of time, then it's viable. As the allocation of >3GHz for UWB is a relatively new permitted use (15 years, as opposed to 80+ years for TV bands), given the growing number of >6GHz UWB products, and the fact that these products can co-locate with the primary licensed incumbents, this band allocation should remain in place long after you retire. The real question is how far can the technology be advanced and improved over time.

Thanks, Henry, this makes me feel better and more hopeful for the future.
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Re: Presentation on spectrum issues
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2019, 11:43:13 PM »


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