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[Dan Richardson]

We are a small sound production company on the east coast.  In the past year, I've downsized the company to a largely one man show

Problems:
- With the current setup, I always need help stacking the boxes...and this is really getting to be a problem.  Aside from the 3 minutes of lifting the boxes up and down each night, a second person just isn't needed, and the finances don't really warrant it.  I'd like to lighten everything up and still get the SPL we need.  I'd like to tops to be MAX of 65 lbs, preferably 55 or less.

- Some venues have stairs...stairs suck

I'm right there, point for point, except I no longer have any gigs with stairs. I run a 3TX over an Orbit Shifter on each side, and am always happy. Orbit Shifters are a breeze move for a single person, but not up and down stairs, so your pair of lighter subs seems like a good plan.

My biggest annual gig is a family friendly outdoor 2000 seat venue. Other than infills for right down front, the system covers it beautifully.

[John Halliburton]

I’ve owned FA22AC and currently own some SM80. Both sound great, but I’d have to give the slight edge to the Fulcrum. SM80 gets louder though. We recently did an outdoor show with a McCartney tribute that had over 2000 in attendance with a single SM80/TH118 per side. Not rock concert volume mind you, and we had a delay speaker setup but what an impressive little rig.

Haven't used the Fulcrum, but it is similar to the JTR Noesis 3, except Jeff uses a pair of custom 10" woofers under the BMS coaxial m/h driver.  I have used the Noesis, most recently for audiences of roughly 500 in a convention hall room with hard airwalls down each side-plus they were mostly audiophiles, as it was the AXPONA show.  I must have done something right for two nights, had guys come up and compliment the sound and ask about the speakers.  That said, they have limits on how far back you're going to have it sound as nice at say less than 75', just like any small SOS.

The Captivator 212 powered subs are great small subs.

I feel I can get a more distinct and articulate mix overall with the SM80(or any of my Danley products) that holds up better with distance.  Combined with my TH115, this is a formidable small rig.  I've not had issues with the SM80's low end response when using subs either.  I have been tempted to build a pair of shells that mimic the SM80m cabinetry and compare.  Perhaps this winter.

I will actually be outside at an equestrian center grassy field where the acreage is surrounded by forest and nice estates.  The field will slope away a little from the stage area, so I will have a good chance to evaluate the sound of my rig in the open and make some relevant observations.

I really think you'll be happy with either Danley or JTR.

Best regards,

John

[John Penkala]

Hi All,

Long time lurker, first post.  My apologies as this topic and the solutions I'm considering have been discussed by others in older posts, but many are from long ago.  I've read everything out there 10 times and I'm hoping there may be fresh/updated experiences to share.

We are a small sound production company on the east coast.  In the past year, I've downsized the company to a largely one man show, usually working with the same band (rock and top 40 covers), about 100 gigs each year.  We've gone through small line arrays and lots of different powered point source boxes and subs over the years, frequently turning over gear.  We were an RCF dealer and I've been through most of their boxes.  Our current "A" system, which fits most of the venues for this band is (4) Yahama DXS15XLF - 2 per side, under (1) DZR315 per side.  For smaller everts, weddings, and corporate, I might use some DZR12 that we also have...the DZR12s are not enough for the larger gigs.  The band plays everything from small clubs of 200 people, up to outside events for 2000 people.  The average job is about 400-800 people, inside.  For the largest stuff outside stuff, we usually cross rent, but I'd like to be able to handle 800 people outside with whatever we purchase.  For reference, I'm 50 years old and have been doing sound for 20 years, this company is 10 years old. 

Problems:
- With the current setup, I always need help stacking the boxes...and this is really getting to be a problem.  Aside from the 3 minutes of lifting the boxes up and down each night, a second person just isn't needed, and the finances don't really warrant it.  I'd like to lighten everything up and still get the SPL we need.  I'd like to tops to be MAX of 65 lbs, preferably 55 or less.
- Sound quality is good, but I'd like a little more output from the subs at 40HZ and up.  We cross over at 100 currently.
- DZR315 provides enough output for almost all gigs, but they're not pole mountable and we don't have rigging capability anymore.  Limited to stack which is not ideal in many setups, would like to get the tops up higher and tilted
- Some venues have stairs...stairs suck

We have two Powersoft K3 amps and passive is on the table.

I'd like the most powerful, best sounding, most efficient, , well behaved pattern control, and above all LIGHTEST boxes I can get that will fit the output and quality needs of the current situation.

Current front runners:
Subs: 
(4) JTR Captivator 212Pro (passive) - Love the weight at 67 lbs and the supposed output
To those that have been using them for larger shows, will they cut it?  No EDM, just bands.  I've spoken to one owner (thanks Steve) but I'm looking for other fresh experiences as these boxes are relatively young.

Any other subs recommendations?  There are a ton of great subs out there, but very few that are this low in weight.


Tops:
Fulcrum FA22 (passive)
The active version (FA22AC) has been discontinued.  Our K3 can handle the power and DSP requirements.  I haven't found a single user out there with the passive versions.  No availability for demo either.

JTR Noesis 3TX (see comments above)

Danley SM80


T24N and PM60/90 look great but they are both too heavy to be safe for one person to get up on a pole.  We had the RCF NXL44-A but they were also too heavy and I'd like a little better sound quality...vocal clarity wasn't great.  We also had a NXL24-A and it was a little weak for our application.  For subs, I'd love some TH-118, but the weight is a non-starter.  The Fulcrum FA215 are also heavier than I want to be.

We will use BT-12 tilters and a crank sub pole to get the tops up high and tilted down. 

I know this is a lot of requirements and maybe I'm dreaming to hope for so much.  Any other recommendations, or further insight on these boxes would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Rich

Rich,
        I had the same criteria as you when I added a system last year. I have no regrets. I went with JBL VTX F15's (52lbs) over JBL VTX S25's (135lbs). The subs are very manageable on casterboard's. To give you an idea of the output of the subs JBL recommends a ratio of 2-S25 subs to 6-VTX V20 line array elements to achieve a "flat" system response.  You will need iTechHD power. There's no shortage of used iTechHD's. Good luck.

JP

[Kent Clasen]

Thank you Steve.  From your experience, do you think the FA22AC (90/45) can cover as many people as the SM80?  Again, I'll always run with subs so the low extension of the SM80 is less of an issue.

Fulcrum actually directly supplies the Armonia files for the Powersoft, so its essentially plug and play.

Thanks again!

A few years ago we A/B'd the Fulcrum DX1265 [which I believe is the install version of the FAC22] with their Level 1 DSP settings vs. SM80. We were going for sound quality. Everyone in our shop chose the Fulcrum as the best sounding.

Many people like the SM80. For your application either one is a quality product.

[John L Nobile]

A few years ago we A/B'd the Fulcrum DX1265 [which I believe is the install version of the FAC22] with their Level 1 DSP settings vs. SM80. We were going for sound quality. Everyone in our shop chose the Fulcrum as the best sounding.

Many people like the SM80. For your application either one is a quality product.

Out of curiosity, did you A/B the 2 speakers alone or with subs?

[Taylor Hall]

Haven't used the Fulcrum, but it is similar to the JTR Noesis 3, except Jeff uses a pair of custom 10" woofers under the BMS coaxial m/h driver.  I have used the Noesis, most recently for audiences of roughly 500 in a convention hall room with hard airwalls down each side-plus they were mostly audiophiles, as it was the AXPONA show.  I must have done something right for two nights, had guys come up and compliment the sound and ask about the speakers.  That said, they have limits on how far back you're going to have it sound as nice at say less than 75', just like any small SOS.

I missed Axpona this year, hoping to make it out to the next one to help my buddy out with his shop's booth. Not sure if you got to roam the expo floor at all if you were running a room.

[Rich Riotto]

Thank you all for your responses so far.  Glad to hear so many positive responses for the 3TX, SM80 and FA22.  It seems like any would fit our needs, with the SM80 probably winning on coherence with max SPL over distance.

John, thank you for the info on the JBL VTX.  Since we already have Powersoft amps, I'd like to stay in that ball park and not switch to iTech HDs.

Kent, from the Fulcrum website, the DX1265 cabinet is a bit deeper with a more pointed trap shape in the back.  I believe the drivers are the same as the FA22.  With the Level 1 DSP, they probably sound identical.  Great to hear your review.

On the subs, stairs are really the biggest issue.  I'd say one gig in four, I'm lugging speakers up at least a couple of steps...seeing them makes me question why I do this job in the first place!  On the east coast, a lot of these venues are old and this is an unfortunate reality if I want to keep this company going.  I can't work with the bands that I do, and then exclude stair jobs.  We did a wedding on a private yacht a few weeks ago where the load logistics were the stuff of bad dreams.

Is there anything out there like the JTR Cap 212Pro or are they the only/best choice for a super lightweight sub with this kind of power? Even if the ratio is 2 boxes to 1, at least its feasible (without hurting myself) to do a single tech load for every gig.  My biggest concern with JTR is resale value, and the fact that it's a one man company which brings in service risk, especially in the future.  At the end of the day, I'd go with them anyway if it saves my body or eliminates the need for a load in helper.

Again, THANK YOU to everyone for sharing your experience.  This is very helpful.

Rich

[Nathan Riddle]

Having tested both 3TX vs SM80 side by side = sm80 winning in SPL & Clarity. We didn't get to sound quality testing as we got rained out, silly Florida.

No opinion on FA22 vs SM80.

FWIW the TH115/8/XL roll upstairs pretty easy. Not sure I'd want to do multiple flights of stairs on multiple gigs a week, but a few gigs throughout the year isn't so bad IMO.

No opinion on 212Pro.

SM80 gets ridiculously loud. You'll need some serious sub to keep up IMO.

[John Halliburton]

I missed Axpona this year, hoping to make it out to the next one to help my buddy out with his shop's booth. Not sure if you got to roam the expo floor at all if you were running a room.

Only did some walking around once really, and then I really only spent some time talking with Jack Arnott at his room.

John

[Jeffrey Knorr - JRKLabs.com]

FWIW the TH115/8/XL roll upstairs pretty easy. Not sure I'd want to do multiple flights of stairs on multiple gigs a week, but a few gigs throughout the year isn't so bad IMO.

I've carried TH118's upstairs with two guys before... One man using the built-in handles on the top back going up the stairs backwards.  The second man has the bottom front of the cabinet.  Pretty easy to handle if necessary.  A bottom handle like the Yorkville PSA2S has would make things easier.

The TH118XL being taller probably makes the process easier too.

Jeff

[ProSoundWeb Community]