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[Nick McBride]

I'm trying to come up with a way of fixing a few issues with the sound in our choir.  By sound, I mean the monitor setup, and the choir mics.

Our choir is nestled in a corner, with a ceiling that's about 10-12' above it depending where you're standing.  All the surfaces are highly reflective for sound.

I have 2 problems.  Some members of the choir complain they need more monitor (for listening to a soundtrack playback), which in turns makes the monitor volume so high all our choir mics pick up that sound track.  When the choir is singing to a soundtrack we rarely even put the soundtrack through the FOH, because you can hear the choir monitors so well (even without the choir mics picking it up).

We also can't pick up the choir well either, because the choir monitor volume is so high, and then we run into feedback issues.

The choir is only about 12' wide, and just 3 rows of people deep. About 15-18 members.

I've attached a picture of the choir area so you can see the shape, ceiling, mics, and speaker positioning.

Another detail- our choir monitors are ceiling mounted at the front of the choir, about 10' in front of the first row, and vertically angled into the choir, probably 20 degrees, and about 10' high. There are 2, spaced about 12' apart.

I think the first issue might be that we have 2 choir monitors. I'm starting to think that all the sound bounce from both is making it muddy, and that the members in the middle are getting sound cancellation between the two. We originally though, more speakers, more sound, less complaints.

I'm thinking of putting just a single monitor at the center of the choir, moving it a little closer and increasing the downward angle of it. I'm hoping that would reduce the extra bounce, the cancellation, and clean up the overall sound they're getting. As a side effect I'm hoping that it'd be easier to mic then as well.



One more thing to leave you folks with.  The pastor wants to put an engineered wood floor down that would cover the entire choir area.  Currently it's a berber carpet. I'm concerned that it's just going to add to our sound bounce and make things worse.

[Bill Meeks]

How many choir mics do you have active? I think I see maybe at least three in the photo. That's probably a little too many for a choir of that size. More open mics reduces the gain before feedback, and thus it is easier to get into a feedback situation. My choir is about the same size as yours (actually 12-16 members on average), but arranged in two rows in a somewhat narrow (depth-wise) space. I use two of the Audix 84" Microboom choir mics on floor stands with good results. I use two mics because we have a stereo FOH setup and we livestream in stereo. In many cases, if you have a mono setup, a single mic will work better. Don't know how well floorstand-mounted mics would fit in with your current asthetics, though. The hanging mics are certainly less obtrusive.

It also appears from your photo that the monitor speakers are somewhat distant from the choir members. Remember that the farther away the monitors, the louder they have be in order to be heard. Perhaps floor monitors angled up very near the choir front row would help?? Your idea of a single closer monitor with a steeper down angle might also help. Our choir very rarely uses supporting tracks, so I haven't had to worry about that much. Our choir monitors are also in a non-optimal location in my view. They are on the extreme left and right sides of the choir loft just a hair in front of the first row and angled toward the center of the space.

A hardwood floor will make the area more "live", but the choir members' bodies and the padding in those pews will help to mask the effect a little. My loft has engineered hardwood flooring and bare brick walls on three sides, so it's quite "live"- and not in a particularly pleasant way- but we manage OK with the setup. Just takes some moderately aggressive EQ to notch out a build-up area.

[Dave Pluke]

I'm trying to come up with a way of fixing a few issues with the sound in our choir.  By sound, I mean the monitor setup, and the choir mics.

Challenging setup! How much ventilation system noise do those mics pick up?

Either the mics, the monitors or both should be moved closer to the source.  If you keep those mics where they are, they should have Super Cardioid pickup patterns.  I agree with Bill, there are more mics than needed for that choir size.  Fewer is better.

Dave

[TomBoisseau]

It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it appears that lowing the choir mics so that they are no more than a couple feet above the heads of the choir members would be possible and, if so, of great benefit.  Other than that, the choir needs to learn to accept the least amount of monitor level that they are able to work with.  Of course they must be able to hear it, but there will need to be a reasonable compromise if you want to see (or more importantly "hear") a difference.

One other thing I would suggest you try.  During rehearsal, or certainly before the service, set the playback level of the "track" in the main "house" speakers first, then slowly bring up the choir monitor speakers to supplement.  I have often found that by bringing up the "mains" first, the musicians and vocalists usually request a lower monitor level because there're already hearing so much of the mains and only need a little more from the monitors for "definition".  I know this may be the opposite of what you may have been told or taught, but I would strongly suggest you give it a try.  This method has worked very well for me over the years.  And of course NEVER put the choir mics back into the monitors...  but I'm sure you knew that.

Finally, keep the carpet.  Removing that will only magnify the issues you are currently experiencing.

[Mike Caldwell]

Another vote on lowering the choir mics, even though I know people don't want to see those "ugly' mics.

That said I have never really gotten what I feel are good results from using hanging choir mics at least your normal Shure and Audio Technica offerings.

I can get far better choir pick up with some AT Pro37's on boom stands up in front of a choir.

I did an install upgrade and hung some Pro 37's on smaller white mic cable and made up a way to angle the mics and it worked way better then their Shures ever did.

Once the choir was in place the mics did blend in to the background.

[lindsay Dean]

On the suggestion  "turn up the house feed of the choirs music track"
that would be a big mistake, the timing issue between when the sound leaves the mains, hits the walls and gets back to the choir would throw them off greatly.

[Ken Webster]

As our stage is in a corner and has been for 30 years, I have a long experience with similar problems.  Just about convinced them to move it out of there.  Basically, it's an acoustic problem, so the best solution will be an acoustic one.

1. If at all possible get the performers out of the corner.

2. Apply acoustic treatment.  A surface increases boundary SPL by +3dB, at the intersection of 2 surfaces you get +6dB and at 3 you get +9dB.  If you are wondering if this is true, it is a phenomenon exploited by boundary mics.  I am not an expert on acoustic treatment but from what I have read, absorbers in the highest dB areas should give the most cost effective attenuation.  If you want to go that way, solutions range from DIY through self install of commercial products to engaging a consult.


The previous workaround advice from others seems good.  I am wondering if you could arrange an IEM solution.  Wifi can be expensive but I have seen suggestions where performers plug in a personal mono earpiece with their own volume control.  You just need to provide an audio bus of parallel jacks.  I am not sure of the details of the setup, just came across a few mentions of people doing this.  I suspect there may be a load control device involved as the total parallel impedance would become extremely low.  Maybe an audio transformer to overcome this issue?  A bit out of the box I know, I just thought it an interesting approach.  You'd have to google to find more.

Ken

[TomBoisseau]

On the suggestion  "turn up the house feed of the choirs music track"
that would be a big mistake, the timing issue between when the sound leaves the mains, hits the walls and gets back to the choir would throw them off greatly.

I'm not sure if you were quoting me or someone else, however my statement was:

 "... set the playback level of the "track" in the main "house" speakers first, then slowly bring up the choir monitor speakers to supplement. I have often found that by bringing up the "mains" first, the musicians and vocalists usually request a lower monitor level because there're already hearing so much of the mains and only need a little more from the monitors for 'definition'."

[Keith Broughton]

I'm not sure if you were quoting me or someone else, however my statement was:

 "... set the playback level of the "track" in the main "house" speakers first, then slowly bring up the choir monitor speakers to supplement. I have often found that by bringing up the "mains" first, the musicians and vocalists usually request a lower monitor level because there're already hearing so much of the mains and only need a little more from the monitors for 'definition'."

While this would be a good place to start, if there is a reflection off a back wall, (and I have seen some bad ones) it might cause timing issues.
That said, it's worth a try.

As for the "acoustic" solution, maybe some pipe and drape behind the choir,(temporarily for testing) could be deployed to see if it helps.

[Ken Webster]

While this would be a good place to start, if there is a reflection off a back wall, (and I have seen some bad ones) it might cause timing issues.
That said, it's worth a try.

As for the "acoustic" solution, maybe some pipe and drape (temporarily for testing) could be deployed to see if it helps.

This may be of interest though it comes from a HiFi perspective.  The guy appears to successfully attenuate room modes to a serious degree??

http://www.acousticsinsider.com/best-insulation-material-diy-acoustic-absorbers/

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