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Author Topic: A controvercial topic.  (Read 10298 times)

Ken Webster

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A controvercial topic.
« on: August 29, 2019, 05:46:07 AM »

If you were playing stereo sources like CD or music DVD or lossless music over the PA with high quality DAC and primarily dependent on that for your worship music, would you:

A. Sum to mono and for the whole audience suffer; the loss of backing vocals and some instrumentation, the loss of timbre and rich tonality and ambiance that goes with that decision.

B. Output to FOH as stereo and retain the artistic expression for some while suffering channel loss around the edges.


BTW I have always done this to mono but lately rethinking if the total loss of art may be too high a price for the sake of even coverage.

Ken
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Keith Broughton

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Re: A controvercial topic.
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2019, 06:56:09 AM »

I choose B
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Jonathan Hole

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Re: A controvercial topic.
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2019, 09:18:11 AM »

If you were playing stereo sources like CD or music DVD or lossless music over the PA with high quality DAC and primarily dependent on that for your worship music, would you:

A. Sum to mono and for the whole audience suffer; the loss of backing vocals and some instrumentation, the loss of timbre and rich tonality and ambiance that goes with that decision.

B. Output to FOH as stereo and retain the artistic expression for some while suffering channel loss around the edges.


BTW I have always done this to mono but lately rethinking if the total loss of art may be too high a price for the sake of even coverage.

Ken

I am assuming your room is wide enough and/or PA coverage such that much of the congregation does not hear a stereo image or you wouldn't be asking.  In that case I'd still go with B most likely as most recordings have the key information (i.e. lead vocals) down the middle so for those on the edges they'd be missing some panned sources but get the meat of it.  If BGV or other tracks are panned and out of phase you may have cancellation in mono as well.

Years ago I mixed at a 3k seat church that had a very wide constant curve stage with 4 arrays in a RLRL configuration so that much of the congregation (and FOH) had a stereo mix, just reverse if on the edges... though we didn't pan to the extreme.  I've also seen churches with side fills covering the extreme sides using narrow coverage speakers when the mains didn't quite cover the entire room width. 

Good luck!
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Dave Pluke

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Re: A controvercial topic.
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2019, 01:08:51 PM »

B. Output to FOH as stereo and retain the artistic expression for some while suffering channel loss around the edges.

B, but I would pan both L+R channels toward the center to minimize the differences.

Dave
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David Allred

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Re: A controvercial topic.
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2019, 03:44:33 PM »

A. Sum to mono...   the loss of backing vocals and some instrumentation.

Ken

Can you explain this?
I am also surprised by the responses.  EVERY post with the stereo vs mono question always gets overwhelming stereo poo-pooing.

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Mac Kerr

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Re: A controvercial topic.
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2019, 04:22:54 PM »

Can you explain this?
I am also surprised by the responses.  EVERY post with the stereo vs mono question always gets overwhelming stereo poo-pooing.

As long as I have pretty complete coverage of the room from both L&R arrays I track stereo sources in stereo. I prefer the sound to fully collapsed mono. I am less concerned with every seat hearing exactly the same signal than how it sounds for the majority of the audience.

When collapsing some stereo mixes to mono you will lose any information that was out of polarity between the 2 channels, and most stereo effects will be changed because what they amount to is phase differences.

Mac
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Ken Webster

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Re: A controvercial topic.
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2019, 06:25:48 PM »

Can you explain this?
I am also surprised by the responses.  EVERY post with the stereo vs mono question always gets overwhelming stereo poo-pooing.

Ill try to explain with context,  Our whole sound team are volunteers including me.  When we did our sound training, we always had live worship and the trainer advised that we just forget about stereo as it isn't appropriate to PA because the audience at the edges can't hear the channel on the opposite side.  For this reason and also because our setup currently can't run stereo, we have always run mono.  However, over the years I have used gear failures as an opportunity to upgrade and have tried very hard to identify the root cause of various issues which I have tried to address where and when possible within practical constraints.  The sound now is pretty clear and natural, we get comments about providing good reinforcement.

Now we are replacing/upgrading our PC and will deliver recorded music via a Radial USB-Pro.  I have ripped all the CDs into WAV using EAC and am trying to deliver the cleanest and most accurate source I can within a modest budget.  Of course I realise the rest of the system imposes some degradation but as we are replacing the PC, I am taking the opportunity to upgrade this source.  Some would call it overkill but I don't think I have been overly excessive with expense in the scheme of things. The desk and EQ will get an upgrade later and I don't want our primary source to be the weak link.  So that is the context of where we are at.

Currently the stage is in a corner and I have been educating key people about the acoustic issues this causes.  They are coming around to the idea of moving the stage to the middle of an end wall.
 This move will allow me to mount the speakers on the side walls just in front of the stage and therefore has the potential to run stereo.  Currently they are stacked to give a mono point source for clarity and reduce vertical dispersion loss.  The floor is about 12 by 20 metres.

I have been testing out the Radial USB DAC with headphones, just to asses it,  There is a stereo/mono switch and it is obvious that certain components of the recording are attenuated in mono, sometimes almost entirely.  The most obvious and consistent of these is backing vocals.  In Mono, you get the lead and not much else in vocals.  Other losses are mentioned in my original post.  Music is an art, it is meant to evoke emotion and it seems to me important not to loose that in a ministry of drawing people into worship.  Mono is loosing the art.  A little research indicated these losses are well recognised as due to timing and phasing differences between L & R channels (phase cancellation).  If the speakers are stereo separated L & R, the brain interprets these differences as a sound stage or stereo image.  However, if the speakers are together or the audio signals summed to mono, then parts of the sound get cancelled out to varying degrees.  This is very obvious listening with headphone due to the improved clarity and channel separation but the principal holds true with speakers as well.

So I began to consider that while the advice to go mono in PA has merit for live sound, it may not be appropriate for stereo sources like CD.  I will of course test that out at the church but I just wanted to get some opinions here first as it will take some work to enable a stereo test.

Ken
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 06:57:00 PM by Ken Webster »
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Steve M Smith

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Re: A controvercial topic.
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2019, 07:31:26 AM »

Usually about 70/30 and 30/70.


Steve.
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Len Zenith Jr

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Re: A controvercial topic.
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2019, 07:36:39 AM »

Stereo favors some seats at the expense of others. Mono is equal misery for all.
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Ken Webster

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Re: A controvercial topic.
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2019, 05:55:06 PM »

Stereo favors some seats at the expense of others. Mono is equal misery for all.

That is well understood and is the whole reason for the question. 
Which do prefer when playing stereo recorded sources?

Ken
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: A controvercial topic.
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2019, 05:55:06 PM »


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