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[Ever Cruz]

I'd just like to say I am not a sound engineer and am new to all this.

Building dimensions are 100ft long & 45ft wide and about 50 ft tall.

At my church we have a total of 6 singers.1 guitar. 1 piano. And a mic'd drum set.

Mixing console: Behringer x32

We have two speakers linked to each other on the left side of the stage and the right side of the stage as well facing the people. All 4 speakers are the harbinger VARI 2315 12" powered speakers that are 2000w.

Everything except the bass kick of the drum is being routed to all the speakers. I used to have them at 11 o'clock but they kept clipping and distorting. Then I moved them down to 10 o'clock but they all still kept clipping. Then I turned down all the gain on all the channels from the behringer x32.... BUT they still kept clipping. I turned down the speakers down to 9 o'clock and they stopped clipping but occasionally when everyone is singing or playing it clips AGAIN. If I turn down the speakers anymore you can barely hear anything.

Are the speakers just too weak? The Left/Right on the behringer x32 is almost always less than halfway.

Anything helps.

Thanks.

[Scott Holtzman]

I'd just like to say I am not a sound engineer and am new to all this.

Building dimensions are 100ft long & 45ft wide and about 50 ft tall.

At my church we have a total of 6 singers.1 guitar. 1 piano. And a mic'd drum set.

Mixing console: Behringer x32

We have two speakers linked to each other on the left side of the stage and the right side of the stage as well facing the people. All 4 speakers are the harbinger VARI 2315 12" powered speakers that are 2000w.

Everything except the bass kick of the drum is being routed to all the speakers. I used to have them at 11 o'clock but they kept clipping and distorting. Then I moved them down to 10 o'clock but they all still kept clipping. Then I turned down all the gain on all the channels from the behringer x32.... BUT they still kept clipping. I turned down the speakers down to 9 o'clock and they stopped clipping but occasionally when everyone is singing or playing it clips AGAIN. If I turn down the speakers anymore you can barely hear anything.

Are the speakers just too weak? The Left/Right on the behringer x32 is almost always less than halfway.

Anything helps.

Thanks.

Those speakers are total trash, garbage, not even suitable for stage monitors. 

For a room that size to reinforce a band that large you need about 25k (before installation) of speakers and subwoofers.


BTW watts have nothing to do with output ability.  Even on their best day the amplifiers on those speakers can barely make 200w let alone 2000 anyway.

[Brian Jojade]

Scott's response is harsh but pretty accurate.

[Ever Cruz]

Scott's response is harsh but pretty accurate.

Can you suggest some speakers?

[Ever Cruz]

Those speakers are total trash, garbage, not even suitable for stage monitors. 

For a room that size to reinforce a band that large you need about 25k (before installation) of speakers and subwoofers.


BTW watts have nothing to do with output ability.  Even on their best day the amplifiers on those speakers can barely make 200w let alone 2000 anyway.

can you suggest some good speakers that don't break the bank?

[Scott Holtzman]

can you suggest some good speakers that don't break the bank?

There are so many good speakers in that price range.  Somebody has to look at your room at make a recommendation.  You already have wasted money buying junk at the music store.  Do yourself a favor and hire a qualified integrator, you won't be sorry.

[Tim McCulloch]

Hi Ever-

You don't have Enough Rig for the Gig to supply the SPL needed.  You could turn it down until the clip light flashed occasionally and see if the music director, pastor or congregation is happy with the results... my guess is they will not be.

Scott's suggestion to hire an AV integrator is spot on (contact me via PM for the name of a firm I suggest to be avoided).  If your church insists on a DIY route I have a few observations:

1) you will replace the next DIY system much sooner than anticipated
2) the wrong product at the "right price" is still the wrong product
3) buy once, cry once

Written 30 years ago, this article is still spot on:
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf

With that in mind I suggest you RENT some different speakers and use them in your services to get an idea of what works and what does not.  Some loudspeakers have great "numbers" but the acoustic output seems to fall short of those numeric promises, while other loudspeakers seem to exceed their specs.

If you post your city/state, perhaps another LAB user can arrange to demonstrate his/her/their system or offer some on-site observations, perhaps for as little as lunch and a hearty handshake.

In the end, you're putting people in a big room with an expectation for the 1030AM GodShow.  If your congregation and the ministry desire that, you need a rig that delivers or there needs to be an adjustment of expectations.

[Luke Geis]

The take away is that the more you turned the speaker down, the more drive level you had to send to get that loss in level back. When the speaker inputs were clipping the first time, it was the end of the road, turn the speaker down and turn the drive level up and you are clipping again; the end of the road as we know it. The Harbinger's don't have enough to fulfill your needs. You need a speaker with more output. 2000 watts going into an inefficient speaker means less output than the same wattage going into a speaker with higher efficiency.

According to their specs, they have a peak SPL output of 127db. That is probably the lowest output of any speaker with that amount of power! In either case, that number is an at best number. I suspect that your at best output from that speaker before clipping is closer to 110db. This is typically only just enough to beat most bands. It just can't do the job.

In order to not spend more money and make what you have work, I suggest using the system for vocals only and use a fair amount of compression. The compression will help keep the vocals on top and take advantage of what headroom the speaker does have and having vocals only should help reduce the energy the speaker has to reproduce. I would also use an HP filter set to at least 100hz to reduce low-end media in the speaker. This again will increase the headroom and allow that much more potential output before it runs out of gas.

[Debbie Dunkley]

I have to agree with the 'nay sayers' here... those speakers are atrocious! - REALLY!... bottom of the barrel in so many ways.
EVEN if you could get them loud enough ( which you couldn't) they are such a horribly harsh sound that they would cause terrible ear fatigue after a short time - NOT what you are looking for at all!
I listened to a band using some a few months ago and I had to leave because my ears hurt so bad and NOT from the volume!...'Ice pick to the forehead' comes to mind...

There are other options that won't break the bank that would be so much better - might not get that much louder BUT will do so in a more pleasing way for sure.
What budget do you have?

[duane massey]

I agree with everything posted here, and Luke has the right approach IF you have no options for the immediate needs. DON'T put the drums in the speakers, period. Put as little keys and guitar in the mix as possible. Just vocals, and hi-pass everything. There is no miracle fix, and once you run out of gain before clipping you are done.

[Ever Cruz]

The take away is that the more you turned the speaker down, the more drive level you had to send to get that loss in level back. When the speaker inputs were clipping the first time, it was the end of the road, turn the speaker down and turn the drive level up and you are clipping again; the end of the road as we know it. The Harbinger's don't have enough to fulfill your needs. You need a speaker with more output. 2000 watts going into an inefficient speaker means less output than the same wattage going into a speaker with higher efficiency.

According to their specs, they have a peak SPL output of 127db. That is probably the lowest output of any speaker with that amount of power! In either case, that number is an at best number. I suspect that your at best output from that speaker before clipping is closer to 110db. This is typically only just enough to beat most bands. It just can't do the job.

In order to not spend more money and make what you have work, I suggest using the system for vocals only and use a fair amount of compression. The compression will help keep the vocals on top and take advantage of what headroom the speaker does have and having vocals only should help reduce the energy the speaker has to reproduce. I would also use an HP filter set to at least 100hz to reduce low-end media in the speaker. This again will increase the headroom and allow that much more potential output before it runs out of gas.

Could you suggest some speakers?

[Dave Pluke]

Even on their best day the amplifiers on those speakers can barely make 200w let alone 2000 anyway.

Those specs are a "rolling downhill, with a strong tailwind, for a microsecond" type of thing.

@Ever - Is this a permanent installation?  If so, your building is tall enough to support flown speakers, which could even out the SPL at different distances.  Anyway, as others said, your application calls for truly Professional Gear, not "Stupid Deal of the Day" stuff.  This forum is full of discussions of applicable systems.  Take some time and read through the posts.  And, I concur with the recommendation to hire an expert to specify and design.

The good news is, you should be able to accomplish what you want with your current mixer.  I would wager that High Pass Filters (HPF) are not being utilized to their fullest at this time.  If you carve off the unnecessary low end from each input, you may eek out another clear decibel or two with what you have.  You're going to want to do this anyway - may as well do it now.

Dave

[Dave Pluke]

Could you suggest some speakers?

At this point, it'd just be a matter of throwing out names, like "Ford" or "Chevy".

Too many questions need to be answered before a brand and model are identified.

Dave

[Ever Cruz]

Those specs are a "rolling downhill, with a strong tailwind, for a microsecond" type of thing.

@Ever - Is this a permanent installation?  If so, your building is tall enough to support flown speakers, which could even out the SPL at different distances.  Anyway, as others said, your application calls for truly Professional Gear, not "Stupid Deal of the Day" stuff.  This forum is full of discussions of applicable systems.  Take some time and read through the posts.  And, I concur with the recommendation to hire an expert to specify and design.

The good news is, you should be able to accomplish what you want with your current mixer.  I would wager that High Pass Filters (HPF) are not being utilized to their fullest at this time.  If you carve off the unnecessary low end from each input, you may eek out another clear decibel or two with what you have.  You're going to want to do this anyway - may as well do it now.

Dave

What would be considered professional? Any speaker suggestions?

[Ever Cruz]

I have to agree with the 'nay sayers' here... those speakers are atrocious! - REALLY!... bottom of the barrel in so many ways.
EVEN if you could get them loud enough ( which you couldn't) they are such a horribly harsh sound that they would cause terrible ear fatigue after a short time - NOT what you are looking for at all!
I listened to a band using some a few months ago and I had to leave because my ears hurt so bad and NOT from the volume!...'Ice pick to the forehead' comes to mind...

There are other options that won't break the bank that would be so much better - might not get that much louder BUT will do so in a more pleasing way for sure.
What budget do you have?

Our budget is 500-750$ speakers. it may not be much but it's all we got.

[Dave Pluke]

What would be considered professional? Any speaker suggestions?

Let me put it this way, if it's advertised at less than $3,000 per box (new), it's probably not professional.  Some "Pro-sumer" solutions might work in your environment, at about half that cost.

I wouldn't suggest any brand or model without visiting the venue.  I'm an End User, not a Dealer and don't have attachments to any manufacturer.  The "perfect" solution might be a center cluster of point-source boxes or a pair of Line Arrays.  Powered boxes (as you're currently running) or Passive, with Power Amps in a rack down below?    Apples and Oranges.

With all due respect, you're looking for a silver bullet where none exist.

Dave

[Paul G. OBrien]

I'm not going to disagree with anybody that said these speakers aren't very good BUT.. one thing I suggest you check is that the speaker inputs are set to LINE and not MIC. If they are set to mic that would explain why they are clipping so easy, and if so you are probably clipping the inputs and may not be getting full output from them..  not that I believe for a micro second that they produce 2000w but even if they only manage 500w, four of them will still produce quite a bit of noise.

[Keith Broughton]

Our budget is 500-750$ speakers. it may not be much but it's all we got.

It's very difficult to just throw out suggestions without knowing the expectations of the pastor, the band and congregation.
At the most basic level, by the sounds of the size of the room, $750/ speaker just isn't going to work.
You need to go back to the people holding the purse strings and try to convince them of a larger investment in equipment and a proper consultant.
As indicated, you could try some rental speakers to see how it goes.
There are a few threads here about powered speakers that should get you on the right track.

[Chris Grimshaw]

Our budget is 500-750$ speakers. it may not be much but it's all we got.

Is that per speaker, or total?

Either way, you need to be shopping around for 2nd hand bargains. I'd be looking for a passive point-source system from yesteryear.

Chris

[Scott Olewiler]

C'mon people. 100 x 45 is not that big of a space.

 There are a lot of users on this forum covering that much space in the real world every week with a couple of DSRs and a pair of decent subs.

They are not needing rock concert levels.

[Rob Spence]

Snip...

They are not needing rock concert levels.

We don’t know. Maybe they do in order to get over the stage wash?

[Mike Caldwell]

We don’t know. Maybe they do in order to get over the stage wash?

He did mention full drum kit!!!

Do you have anyone who really knows how to run the X32 and sound in general?

Good point by Paul to check the mic / line switch or what ever those have for the input level setting....it need to be on line.

I'm assuming the stage is at the end of the 100ft length.
 
100ft long X 45ft wide and 50ft tall is kind of a cave of a room. Is there any acoustic treatment in the room or is it all hard surfaces?
You will not effectively cover that with front to back with speakers on tripod stands.


Your budget is no where close to the type money you need to do a system that is even close to what you need.
What type of other components are in the system, mics, wireless mics, monitors ect.

Speaking of monitors, run them as low in volume as possible!

With what you have now maybe think about instead of all four speakers at the front use two at the front and about half way back set up the other two one on each side as delay fills.
Your board can be set up to feed the delay speakers and apply the delay to the feed.

With the delay speakers you would not be trying to cover front to back all from the front of the room.

[Keith Finch]

We all know the Harbinger speakers are bottom rung, that's a given. But with 4 of them you should be able to get a church band mixed. If the stage volume is so loud you cannot get over it...turn it down!  I would bet you are working with a normal nubie setup. Everything has large cuts in the midrange and some even have bass boosts. give this a try.
1) Store your setup as is
2) Store it again in the next slot
3) Look at your main L&R parametric EQ, flatten it out
4) Look at you main Graphic EQ if you have one on the insert....Flatten it out.
5) View the diagram below and connect Main L&R from X32 to the link in
6) Set the switch to Link In
7) Set Voicing to Live or Standard..(Standard is Flat, Live is a bit of a smile EQ
Set ALL vocal mic High Pass filters to 100hz or 150 for women

Start out a rehearsal with this, as the rehearsal goes on listen for the Harsh sound from the horns in the speakers. Go to the L&R Main parametric and use one EQ point to locate that harsh sound from the Horns, dip that point 3db. Listen for the low, hollow, barrel  sound and do the same for the lows. Make shure you are not using the High and Low Shelf functions to do this.
With a little time you will soon be able to hear problems. But do NOT EQ and add more EQ and add more EQ you end up with no usable sound and a system that just clips with no output at all.

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