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Author Topic: M32 and Cat6 snake  (Read 9000 times)

Scott Holtzman

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Re: M32 and Cat6 snake
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2019, 03:15:31 PM »

No.  AES50 "Hypermac" is NOT TCP/IP packet-switched data.

It would not matter if it was.  Switches are layer 2 devices, they don't deal with IP (layer 3).

AES50 is not Ethernet (802.3x) so an Ethernet switch is not electrically compatible with an AES50 device. 

1000 Base-T wiring

Pin   Name   Description
1   BI_DA+   Bi-directional pair A +
2   BI_DA-   Bi-directional pair A -
3   BI_DB+   Bi-directional pair B +
4   BI_DC+   Bi-directional pair C +
5   BI_DC-   Bi-directional pair C -
6   BI_DB-   Bi-directional pair B -
7   BI_DD+   Bi-directional pair D +
8   BI_DD-   Bi-directional pair D -

AES-50 wiring

1 - Audio data transmit +
2 - Audio data transmit –
3 - Audio data receive +
4 - Sync signal transmit +
5 - Sync signal transmit –
6 - Audio data receive –
7 - Sync signal receive +
8 - Sync signal receive –

Ethernet uses SNAP frames, AES50 a derivitave of HyperMAC

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Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman

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Taylor Hall

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Re: M32 and Cat6 snake
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2019, 03:37:27 PM »

The only time I've heard reports of desyncing at that distance was when two 50m cables were interconnected without using an AES50 amp in between them. Granted, that could have stemmed from an entirely different issue like low quality cable or flaky/non-existent shroud grounds, but in the end the amp solved the problem.

Like John said, though, that does nothing to mitigate EMI/RF interference which could be the real issue.
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: M32 and Cat6 snake
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2019, 05:52:58 PM »

Don't have time to look it up now, but IIRC I read somewhere recently that CAT6 does indeed have a shorter usable length limit, while that problem was fixed with CAT6a.

I confess that until I read that I had been conflating the two 6's without differentiating them, but I believe the difference is important.
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Douglas R. Allen

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Re: M32 and Cat6 snake
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2019, 09:09:20 PM »

No.  AES50 "Hypermac" is NOT TCP/IP packet-switched data.

Of course the M/X32 line is "SuperMac" with 48 channels Bi-Directional. The Pro Series is HyperMac.

I know Midas recommends Cat5E With bonded Ethercon connectors. The bonded ethercon connectors is to help with ESD. As others have mentioned I'd go with the extender for safety sake. 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=aes50+extender+dn9610&&view=detail&mid=9CCEA02C542E1DDACB2E9CCEA02C542E1DDACB2E&&FORM=VRDGAR

Douglas R. Allen
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Chrysander 'C.R.' Young

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Re: M32 and Cat6 snake
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2019, 11:51:33 PM »

Don't have time to look it up now, but IIRC I read somewhere recently that CAT6 does indeed have a shorter usable length limit, while that problem was fixed with CAT6a.

I confess that until I read that I had been conflating the two 6's without differentiating them, but I believe the difference is important.

While true, this really only comes into play at 10Gbps speeds and does not apply to AES50.  For AES50 on the X/M32, Cat 5e under 100m is the spec.
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: M32 and Cat6 snake
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2019, 04:08:16 PM »

While true, this really only comes into play at 10Gbps speeds and does not apply to AES50.  For AES50 on the X/M32, Cat 5e under 100m is the spec.

The actual spec, which I quote in another thread about this subject, is CAT5e (it might even say CAT5) "or better".
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Chrysander 'C.R.' Young

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Re: M32 and Cat6 snake
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2019, 06:13:25 PM »

The actual spec, which I quote in another thread about this subject, is CAT5e (it might even say CAT5) "or better".

Found the spec in the X32 Wiki:

https://behringerwiki.musictribe.com/index.php?title=X32_RACK%3A_AES50_cabling_requirements

Summary:

Shielded Cat-5e cables only
Ethercon terminated cable ends
Maximum cable length 100 meters (300 feet)
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James Paul

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Re: M32 and Cat6 snake
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2019, 08:17:36 PM »

Found the spec in the X32 Wiki:

Summary:

Shielded Cat-5e cables only
Ethercon terminated cable ends
Maximum cable length 100 meters (300 feet)

THIS !
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Dan Mortensen

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Re: M32 and Cat6 snake
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2019, 10:09:07 PM »

Found the spec in the X32 Wiki:

https://behringerwiki.musictribe.com/index.php?title=X32_RACK%3A_AES50_cabling_requirements

Summary:

Shielded Cat-5e cables only
Ethercon terminated cable ends
Maximum cable length 100 meters (300 feet)

That is Behringer/Music Tribe's interpretation of the Standard, which is an AES document and sets the fundamental terms for equipment that is built to be compatible with/meet the Standard. It is downloadable for free by AES members from the Standards section of the AES Member Portal . It is a copyrighted document and is not printable or even quotable here, per the agreement that is made by Members when accessing the Standards.

It does in fact say "or better" or "or higher" after naming the CAT level (5 or 5e). It specifically does not say to only use 5e or that only 5e CAN be successfully used.

Behringer/Music Tribe's take on it does not change what it says.

5e has proven sufficient for many people, although the construction of 6a cables make them more resistant to certain kinds of problems (handling and sync loss issues, primarily IMO), while 5e's most common constructions do not have that same resistance.

The STP 5e that Behringer sells seems to be adequate on all levels electrical and construction, and while that is certainly what they want you to buy and use, they only sell one length (50 meters). You need to figure it out for yourself if you need longer or shorter, and all 5e's are not equal in all respects.

I do agree that many people will be mostly fine most of the time with most 5e's. It's those other times that will visit the gremlins upon you and make you want to figure out why there is a problem. Sometimes going to the higher cable will resolve those problems, even though the needed bandwidth would not seem to require meeting the higher standard. The issues needing to be resolved do not always involve bandwidth. Shielding and Ethercons are examples of that.

EDIT:

Thanks to Luke's simultaneously late and timely posting in the other relevant thread, I see that I violated all protocol and posted in that thread the relevant text of the Standard there, which is:

====================

"4 Physical Interface 4.1 Physical medium

"HRMAI uses a four-pair twisted pair data cable. The minimum specification shall be Category 5 as defined by TIA/EIA-568-B.2, although the use of more stringently-specified cable such as Category 6 is recommended.

"The use of screened (shielded) twisted pair (STP) cable is recommended."

======================

So my memory in the upper part of this post preserves the spirit but not the actual wording of the Standard. That's probably the best that can be hoped for from this old brain.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 01:58:36 AM by Dan Mortensen »
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Hunk Huang

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Re: M32 and Cat6 snake
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2019, 09:15:42 PM »

It would not matter if it was.  Switches are layer 2 devices, they don't deal with IP (layer 3).

AES50 is not Ethernet (802.3x) so an Ethernet switch is not electrically compatible with an AES50 device. 

1000 Base-T wiring

Pin   Name   Description
1   BI_DA+   Bi-directional pair A +
2   BI_DA-   Bi-directional pair A -
3   BI_DB+   Bi-directional pair B +
4   BI_DC+   Bi-directional pair C +
5   BI_DC-   Bi-directional pair C -
6   BI_DB-   Bi-directional pair B -
7   BI_DD+   Bi-directional pair D +
8   BI_DD-   Bi-directional pair D -

AES-50 wiring

1 - Audio data transmit +
2 - Audio data transmit –
3 - Audio data receive +
4 - Sync signal transmit +
5 - Sync signal transmit –
6 - Audio data receive –
7 - Sync signal receive +
8 - Sync signal receive –

Ethernet uses SNAP frames, AES50 a derivitave of HyperMAC

Cat6 usually has a tighter pitch for controlling cross talk
This will cause skewdelay
Means AUDIO DATA PAIR- SYNC PAIR
There may be a 40ns delay
This is not good

In standard Ethernet cat6 can be backward compatible with cat5
But aes50 is not necessarily
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Re: M32 and Cat6 snake
ยซ Reply #19 on: July 11, 2019, 09:15:42 PM ยป


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