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Author Topic: ideas/suggestions for newbie system  (Read 6857 times)

Nathan Riddle

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Re: ideas/suggestions for newbie system
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2019, 08:23:50 PM »

Hi all.
Newbie here who has been lurking.

Weekend warrior bassist, I'm looking at band leadership with a purchase
of a smallish system.

I also play in some other bands and would
like to use what I get in other situations.
(as in subs used in possible monitoring, or mains used for smaller gigs/side fills)

I'm in the mini van/garage style system.
Thinking maybe JTR 2 12 Captivator under Yamaha DZR 1 10's
Perhaps Ui24 or Qu Pac?

I have interest in learning and gear, but have never twisted the knobs.
I'm wondering if this is smart?
I know people that I could rent/borrow gear from to try out,
and have bought a small light rig from Mike Pyle.

I'll post some pics to give an idea of some of the gigs and rigs I'm already on.
Thanks for any advice and help!

TJ Cornish's website comes to mind.

http://tjcornish.com/articles/recommended-audio-equipment.html

Quote
Budget $10,000-20,000.

Needs, possible wired in ear rig, so would need
2 Subs
2 Tops
1 Digital mixer
Mic and speaker stands
Cases, covers, cables
Drum mic package
Vocal mics.

If I was to do it all over again, the TH118XL/SRX835 rig is extremely hard to beat for the money.
TH118XL, because they sound better than any dual 18 front loaded cab. Get the SRX subs if you need to save money. JTR is good too.

SRX835 is big and heavy though, so you might go with a two-way box.
I haven't heard the DZR series but they are also a contender. I've heard (from others) that the DZR is better than the SRX, so I'm not sure.
Danley's new FLX mains might be a good idea too though.

M32 or SQ6 (I like faders).
If you need an ultraportable console (no faders) then the M32C and DL32 are a good idea.
I say stick with the x32/m32 series because they have a lot more versatility and devlopment than the Ui or QU.

K&M mic stands. don't cheap out and you won't be upset in the future.
If you need to get high the ST132 crank stands are the best.
If not...The pneumatic stands are something to look into.

EWI cases.
GLS XLR & 1/4" cables

Ki-B91
B98 - snare/toms
B87 - vocals






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Luke Geis

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Re: ideas/suggestions for newbie system
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2019, 03:01:32 AM »

$10-20K is a damn good starting budget! I would say that for a first system, simplicity, as you say, is a must. The thing you will find really hurts is copper...... Cables are not exactly cheap and going from zero to having 30+ mic & interconnect cables, several hundreds of feet of A/C in different footages and any specialty cables will set you back an easy grand or more. Stands would be the next surprising ouch. Stands worth owning start around $40 apiece and you will want a case or two to put them in. I would suspect another $2-3 hundred in that. As you can see you've eaten a pretty small fortune out of the budget and you haven't even gotten to speakers yet.

I would go with whatever mixer you feel gives you the most options and goes beyond your current, and well into your potential needs. A Midas M32, A&H QU or whatever is going to set you back and easy $4-5K by the time you get stage boxes, casing, and networking done.

Mics are another big investment. You can almost factor them at around $100 each by the time you get cases and depending on which Drum Mic kit you go with. I recently spent $1,200 in just mics for a drum kit and I still need a couple more mics to round it out! For a basic mic package, you would be looking at Shure SM58's and 57's with a drum mic kit of some sort which depending on how you go, can set you back close to $1k or more.

We still haven't gotten to speakers yet and we have easily spent close to $7K!!!! If you had a $10k budget you are not left with much more. I suggest JBL SRX, or anything RCF NX series or better. These model lines will give you the best you can get for the money. In the case of the JBL SRX, you are looking at about $1,400 per speaker new, after cases/bags and going with the single 18" sub. You can spend less than that, but speakers you want to own start around the $700-$1,500 mark each. So you now have another $6K eaten up from your budget and we still haven't gotten to monitors yet!!!

In ear monitors cost about as much as any conventional system does. Granted, wired IEM's do cost significantly less, they are still not exactly cheap to do very well. I always, always, ALWAYS recommend stereo for IEM's. It is the only way to do it right. Stereo costs more to do because you need a mixer capable of your needs and you need again more copper or higher dollar wireless units. And since you are trying to keep things easy as you can and do it from the stage, you may as well invest in the monitor mixing packages that most mixers work with. The Aviom type personal monitor systems take a HUGE load off your shoulders and if you're going wired, this may be the best way to do it. In either case, you can expect to spend between $100 - $500 or more per IEM. If you go conventional you can expect the cost to be much like that of the mains per mix. About $700 - $1,500 if you care to spend that much per monitor.

All in all, I could spend your $20K real quick and you would still have only a basic system. So far we have eaten close to $14K not factoring any taxes and shipping or peripherals like Routers, Ipad's and special devices to do specific tasks. You have to find a balance on where to put your money. While it would seem prudent to spend more on the Speakers, this leaves you with less for the mixer, mics, and other semi-important things. Microphones are not cheap and are not really a one size fits all solution. It stands to reason that like speakers, the more you spend on them, the better they can potentially be. Basically saying that a cheap and or wrong mic and the worlds most expensive PA doesn't get you very far. Same goes for the mixer. While there is not a bad sounding mixer per se, you still want a reliable and capable one that doesn't hinder your ability to do what you want. If you get a cheap mixer that doesn't have the features you need so you can get a more expensive speaker, you are going backward again. Cables again are a large consideration. The cheap $10 mic cables are not as good as the $40 ones. So even going somewhere in the middle is a compromise. I expect to spend at least $1 per foot and another $5 per connector; making a 25' cable roughly $35 to purchase to have decent quality. As you can imagine, you will need lots of cables. A basic band can easily eat up 16 or more and you need a fair amount for the PA system too. I own 42 X 25' cables and 6 of every other common length there is, plus specialty cables like XLR -TRS, TRS -TRS, gender benders, phase flips and pin 1 lifts. I easily have 2,000 feet of XLR! Even at half that much, you're looking at $1K at least. A/C is roughly $1 - 1.5 per foot as well. You will need multitudes of short, medium and long lengths to round out your needs. 500' - 1,000' of A/C cable would not be a far stretch for even basic needs. Let's not forget DI boxes! At roughly $50 each, you will want at least 4. Cases for that stuff is not a huge deal. I use the Harbor Freight Apache cases that are the Pelican knock off's for all my cabling and Di boxes. I have a total of 10 cases to fit all my mics, cables, DI boxes, and specialty tools. At roughly $60 each ( after you average it out ), it is a cost to consider. The peripheral costs can quickly add up. You really have to weigh out how much you WILL spend, and where you want the value of that money to go.

I can say that the difference in sound quality between a $1K speaker and a $3K+ speaker is not that much. Certainly not enough that the audience that you will cater to will go " oh, you have JBL; shoulda got Meyer dude......" The difference between even a $700 speaker and a $2,000 one is not that much. Once you spend a certain $ amount, the money goes more towards performance and overall quality and the sound doesn't really improve too much more. For example, the JBL SRX line is compatible with their Vertec and VTX offerings. It is not VTX, but it sounds close enough and performs well enough to work in tandem with it. From a value perspective, the JBL SRX is probably the best you can get. You get great performance, great sound, and networking capability in a speaker that doesn't cost too much more than the next best thing. You can spend more and not necessarily get more. The question is how much more will you spend before the actual improvement in performance and sound is easily quantifiable?
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: ideas/suggestions for newbie system
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2019, 02:13:49 AM »

My sincere suggestion would be to set aside a portion of the budget for a dedicated sound engineer.
IMO, there's little point in spending this sort of cash if the operator will spend most of the gig playing an instrument.

Chris
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Andy Olsen

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Re: ideas/suggestions for newbie system
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2019, 04:52:28 AM »

[quote author=andyolsen link=topic=171405.msg1578698#msg1578698 date=
Hi all.
Newbie here who has been lurking.

Weekend warrior bassist, I'm looking at band leadership with a purchase
of a smallish system.

Budget $10,000-20,000.

Needs, possible wired in ear rig, so would need
2 Subs
2 Tops
1 Digital mixer
Mic and speaker stands
Cases, covers, cables
Drum mic package
Vocal mics.

I also play in some other bands and would
like to use what I get in other situations.
(as in subs used in possible monitoring, or mains used for smaller gigs/side fills)

I'm in the mini van/garage style system.
Thinking maybe JTR 2 12 Captivator under Yamaha DZR 1 10's
Perhaps Ui24 or Qu Pac?

I have interest in learning and gear, but have never twisted the knobs.
I'm wondering if this is smart?
I know people that I could rent/borrow gear from to try out,
and have bought a s/Users/macuser/Pictures/Photos Library.photoslibrary/Masters/2019/06/09/20190609-195215/IMG_0454.JPGmall light rig from Mike Pyle.

I'll post some pics to give an idea of some of the gigs and rigs I'm already on.
Thanks for any advice and help!
/Use/Users/macuser/Pictur/Users/macuser/Pictures/Photos /Users/macuser/Pictures/Photos /Users/macuser/Pictures/Photos Library.photoslibrary/Masters/2018/12/07/20181207-214404/IMG_0258.JPGLibrary.photoslibrary/Masters/2018/12/31/20181231-201738/IMG_0279.JPGLibrary.photoslibrary/Masters/2019/05/01/20190501-170404/IMG_0315.JPGes/Photos Library.photoslibrary/Masters/2019/05/29/20190529-165851/IMG_0364.JPGrs/macuser/Pictures/Photos Library.photoslibrary/Masters/2019/06/09/20190609-195215/IMG_0456.JPG/Users/macuser/Pictures/Photos Library.photoslibrary/Masters/2019/05/18/20190518-021233/IMG_0328.JPG
[/quote]

Ah thanks so much for all the advice!
Back home in the heat after the weekends gigs.
There are a LOT of EV house systems in Minneapolis metro area!
( EV is based here?)
The house system tonight was QSC and also sounded good.

Yea I think I'm getting some ideas.

First off, It has to fit in a mini van.(as was already suggested.Thanks!)
One man operation.
Here is what I have already,
Small light rig (thanks mike pyle)
2 Shure mics. (Beta something, not 57, not sure)
Some K and M stands (also thanks for the suggestion)
Quite a few cables,(mics, Speakon,AC,DMX,guitar,etc)

Been looking at the Yamaha board.
I've sort of thought that I'd be buying some sort of iPad control unit,
but I kind like the idea of a standard analog looking mixer too.

I understand that asking for advice from sound people, about how to
take work away from sound companies is kinda stupid on my part.
Some of the groups I play in, do use a sound crew, but not all gigs.
The main thing here is the idea of me, becoming the BL.
( the dreaded bass player with a pa syndrome!!!)

I've been using wired in ear monitors with good results.
That is sort of the idea here.
The nice thing is this is a small personal rig, so I'm not necessarily think how to rent it out.
But I would like to be able to put some of the components to use in other systems I use.
i.e.
50's band- Mix wiz, QSC mains (2 15+horn),little Kustom powered monitors.
(I would love some JTR 2 12 subs as drum and bass monitor on this gig.The little monitors
don't cut it, plus no stands for main speakers, would love some DZR on sticks as well)

Bluegrass band- A+H analog mixer, cheaper EV 1 12+horn mains and monitors.
( this band does old school one "studio style" mic for everything with 2 other smaller mics
to the side for solo's)  (question,This style mic is condenser?)

Top 40 dance- Mackie digital,Madison(?) tops 2 12+horn, and the big Yorkville "one note wonder"
subs.
(this one is the easiest rig, but they have truss for lights, but are updating soon. Offered my lights
but what they have work for now. This is the rig I'm trying to emulate, only with less weight perhaps)

As usual,thanks for all the great advice. I want to learn. I hang with the sound guys and pick up
what I can at gigs, so I've seen and heard plenty.

Love the Danley idea.I've been on a gig in Nashville that used the mini sub(1 12). Was great.
I'm a little nervous about passive boxes.No experience with DSP etc. Do they make powered
smaller top boxes? How would I know what amp setting to use with which boxes(any passive box?)

Please keep sending me your ideas of a good small rig $10-20K range.
Size 50 to 100 in bars to 200-300 in theatres.
Mini van one person wired in ear rig.

Speakers- SRX,DZR or DSR,RCF NX or even TT?,Danley or even JTR for tops.
Speakers sub- SRX, DXR, RCF, Danley,JTR, how about BASSBOSS ? (on mike pyle's line card)
Digital mixer- QuPac,SQ6 yamaha?, M32 midas?,Ui24,Yamaha TF,etc.

Or forget the whole thing?
The sound business/musician thing is for the birds!!!!!
Always hire a sound company!
Or better yet, keep playing and learn more and hire out to wrap cable and push cases
and let some one else invest in gear.There has to be production houses in the Twin Cities.

Oh, my last long winded post.
As a fan of music in MN I must thank pro sound web  member Art for all the shows
I've seen on system he must have had a hand in. (Southern Thunder? First Ave,Entry,River
Flat Jam, Upper Mississippi Shakedown,etc.)

Thanks! ( a friend is speaking at Tony Glover's funeral today. RIP Tony Glover)
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Art Welter

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Re: ideas/suggestions for newbie system
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2019, 04:03:36 PM »

Andy,

Sorry to hear “Little Sun” won’t be coming up again.

Thanks for the memories you listed- and Stoney Lonesome!

As for your sound equipment investment, a digital mixer and wired in ear rig of your choice with a minimal but good mic/dI/stand package makes sense. A decent pair of mains that you can lift to near head height onto stands or pole mounted on small subs (if needed) would take care of the gigs in venues that don’t have PAs, and serve as a practice and learning system.

Although you could spend $3000 per speaker,  you could get a pair of used Mackie SRM-450 for $450, and with a little bit of EQ get results that would cover 70-300 people with virtually no one (other than the guy who has a “better system”) noticing the difference. Yes, more expensive, better choices can go louder with less distortion, may have slightly better pattern control, but at the typical bar or community event, all the background noise tends to make those differences of little consequence.

Good musicianship, arrangements, balanced stage volume, and knowing the limitations of what your system can do can do will go a lot further than any money you can throw at chasing the “best”. Put the money towards feeding your musicians those high quality ingredients that they will enjoy!

Art
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Andy Olsen

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Re: ideas/suggestions for newbie system
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2019, 11:18:25 PM »

Andy,

Sorry to hear “Little Sun” won’t be coming up again.

Thanks for the memories you listed- and Stoney Lonesome!

As for your sound equipment investment, a digital mixer and wired in ear rig of your choice with a minimal but good mic/dI/stand package makes sense. A decent pair of mains that you can lift to near head height onto stands or pole mounted on small subs (if needed) would take care of the gigs in venues that don’t have PAs, and serve as a practice and learning system.


Although you could spend $3000 per speaker,  you could get a pair of used Mackie SRM-450 for $450, and with a little bit of EQ get results that would cover 70-300 people with virtually no one (other than the guy who has a “better system”) noticing the difference. Yes, more expensive, better choices can go louder with less distortion, may have slightly better pattern control, but at the typical bar or community event, all the background noise tends to make those differences of little consequence.

Good musicianship, arrangements, balanced stage volume, and knowing the limitations of what your system can do can do will go a lot further than any money you can throw at chasing the “best”. Put the money towards feeding your musicians those high quality ingredients that they will enjoy!

Art


Thanks Art.

Thank you for remembering me in Stoney Lonesome.
That was a fun gig and tour.

So I should keep it simple to start eh?

Are you located in the SW?

One of the bands I play in was offered some dates for the snow bird set this winter.
Perhaps I could pick your brain for sound providers if need be?
Do you still own/have access to a system?

Thanks again everyone. I'll take everyone's suggestions and start doing my homework.

One last question on mixers. Do you know what Roland C. meant when calling Yamaha TF " easiest to mix, but slightly dearer"?
They look interesting, I have never heard any mention of them or seen them in the "wild". Just curious.

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Mike Santarelli

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Re: ideas/suggestions for newbie system
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2019, 11:40:16 PM »

I would also look into the rcf nxl24 and DB Technologies ig4t. They are impressive and easy to pack. The ig4t is about 40lbs. Both models can be doubled up (stacked) if you need to build the system.

With you budget, if you want something with some punch in a smaller box the rcf tt22a,  tt25a, tt2a are all contenders. I have the srx835 and my tt2a have much more clarity and go about as loud.

The srx systems are solid for the price. For ease of setup and transport I’d look at the smaller point source boxes or the columns like I mentioned.
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Art Welter

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Re: ideas/suggestions for newbie system
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2019, 03:34:13 PM »


Thanks Art.

Thank you for remembering me in Stoney Lonesome.
That was a fun gig and tour.

So I should keep it simple to start eh?

Are you located in the SW?

One of the bands I play in was offered some dates for the snow bird set this winter.
Perhaps I could pick your brain for sound providers if need be?
Do you still own/have access to a system?

Thanks again everyone. I'll take everyone's suggestions and start doing my homework.

One last question on mixers. Do you know what Roland C. meant when calling Yamaha TF " easiest to mix, but slightly dearer"?
They look interesting, I have never heard any mention of them or seen them in the "wild". Just curious.
Keep it simple from start to finish ;^).

I was located in New Mexico after leaving the Twin Cities in 1996, been living in Florida since 2016.

I've sold off my sound and light systems, retaining mics, cords and stands.  Still have some raw speakers, hardware and tools I'd like to sell to the "next generation". I'd be glad to share any information about sound providers I know with you.

Roland C. probably means "more expensive" when he says "slightly dearer". As far as being "easier to mix on", every digital platform has fans and haters- what you learn on will tend to color your perceptions of "ease of use".

Art

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dave milton

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Re: ideas/suggestions for newbie system
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2019, 01:04:42 PM »

Andy,
   I just sent you a PM with a possibility that you might be interested in.  But PSW forums are acting a bit wonky on my end, and I'm not sure you got the message.
   Did you get something?  Are you interested in talking about a solution I might have?

d.
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Andy Olsen

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Re: ideas/suggestions for newbie system
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2019, 01:42:11 AM »

Andy,
   I just sent you a PM with a possibility that you might be interested in.  But PSW forums are acting a bit wonky on my end, and I'm not sure you got the message.
   Did you get something?  Are you interested in talking about a solution I might have?

d.

Thanks, PM replied.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: ideas/suggestions for newbie system
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2019, 01:42:11 AM »


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