ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?  (Read 1454 times)

Sam Costa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 287
  • 408-849-6420
Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« on: June 24, 2019, 04:18:10 pm »

Hey guys/gals,
Recently picked up 4 QSC K12.2 and so far I'm really liking them, so much so that I'm planning on picking up 2 more.
I have one more event that I'm planning on slapping them pretty hard before I place them in my inventory, but I was curious to know if anyone has any suggestions on proper splay?
I would like to place at least 2 per side for FOH on a medium sized outdoor area for up to 500 people, but noticed that the box design doesn't allow it. In testing with both cabinets angled about 15 degrees, I noticed there was a slight phase issue.

Would it be a better option to go with 2 more cabinets (for a total of 3 per side) and offer more stereo imaging and tighten up the coverage area?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

Here's a photo:
Logged
Being a productive member of society and encouraging others to do the same.

Chris Grimshaw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1269
  • Sheffield, UK
    • Grimshaw Audio
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2019, 05:09:13 pm »

I'm not convinced that adding more K12.2s will improve things for you. You're heading towards KLA, and we know how that plays out.
I'd think about something bigger, like a 2x15"+2", and move the K12.2s to monitor/fill duties.

Chris
Logged
Sheffield-based sound engineering.
www.grimshawaudio.com

David Winners

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 388
  • Bryan, OH
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2019, 05:45:35 pm »

Something like the SRX835p or KW153 would give you more output. Trying to splay K12s is not going to be good. I personally prefer the JBL 3 way to the QSC, but having a matching system has its benefits. What subs are you using?
Logged

Scott Olewiler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1184
  • Trust me, it will be loud enough.
    • 4th Street Sound
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2019, 06:08:16 pm »

Splaying cabinets gets you wider coverage, but not that much more SPL across the coverage area.   3 a side is going to probably result in more phase issues but not get it any louder at the back.

Are you just trying to get more coverage in the center front? If so, use fronts fills.

If you really need more volume you need a louder box.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 06:25:23 pm by Scott Olewiler »
Logged
We're here to deliver the sound equipment. Who has the check?

Peter Kowalczyk

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 194
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2019, 06:20:20 pm »

I haven't used K12.2, but I did a series last summer using 2x KW-153 per side.  Not my rig; I was just brought in to mix.  I splayed them wide enough to minimize overlap, and it sounded fine, but was far wider than our narrow-and-deep coverage area, and not really loud enough.  We tightened them up and got a bit more level, but the phase cancellation made for a frustrating mixing experience.  I didn't take the gig this year. 

Boxes like K12.2 aren't really designed to be arrayed.  By all means, set 'em up and have fun making noise.  But if you're trying to level-up your rig, as others have said, then replacing your mains with a higher-output / arrayable design will be money-better-spent than just adding more of the same.

Logged

Robert Lunceford

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 425
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2019, 08:44:47 pm »

With 3 per side you can do a dash-array with some custom hardware.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/QSC-K12-2-CUSTOMIZED-AS-LINE-ARRAY-12-000-W-SYSTEM/173909101772?hash=item287dca4ccc:g:EAEAAOSwX3ZcVo4M

Whatever you end up doing, you should get the mains up higher in the air. They look a bit low even when stacked on the subs.
It looks like you have a matched pair of subs on one side and a mixed pair on the other side.

Logged

Xiang Cao

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2019, 09:41:24 pm »

the spread is 75 degree. Agree that these are not designed to be arrayed. Put two speakers together does not necessarily make it louder.
Logged

Mal Brown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 738
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2019, 10:14:40 pm »

Worse yet the spread is conical.  Look k12s and 12.2s are great single boxes but they do not Array well.  Virtually nothing does in that end of the market.

Youd be way better off with some older quality trap array boxes that will.

Been there, done that, got the tee shirt in multiple colors...
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 02:29:17 am by Mal Brown »
Logged
Bass player, sound guy.
Fb Gorge Sound and Light
WillyandNelson.com

Weogo Reed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Western NC,
    • LiveEdge
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2019, 12:06:55 am »

Hi Sam,

For wider coverage, multiple boxes separated by at least 10 feet would work.
For more volume at the back of the venue, use a pair as delay-fills.
As already noted, get the boxes up higher, and if you just need louder, get louder boxes.
Physics says the phase issues are worse than you are initially aware of.

I recently took down an array of two three-way boxes that are 17" x 34", and put one of them back up.
Better quality sound with only a small hit to the low mids, which had originally been dialed back to make the rig sound good.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo 
Logged

Sam Costa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 287
  • 408-849-6420
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2019, 12:29:15 am »

I haven't used K12.2, but I did a series last summer using 2x KW-153 per side.  Not my rig; I was just brought in to mix.  I splayed them wide enough to minimize overlap, and it sounded fine, but was far wider than our narrow-and-deep coverage area, and not really loud enough.  We tightened them up and got a bit more level, but the phase cancellation made for a frustrating mixing experience.  I didn't take the gig this year. 

Boxes like K12.2 aren't really designed to be arrayed.  By all means, set 'em up and have fun making noise.  But if you're trying to level-up your rig, as others have said, then replacing your mains with a higher-output / arrayable design will be money-better-spent than just adding more of the same.

Sorry guys, I guess I should have mentioned that I already have delays about 55'ft in front of the stage going into the grass seating area. People bring in their lawn chairs and blankets and sit on the grass so that part is covered. I was more concerned with the proper splay for these particular QSC's.. :)

I also had my other rig which is a EAW KF300 box (2 per side) which I used for a similar event at the same location and they were a bit louder. I typically do place the KF's on top of my subs just as I did with the QSC's on this photo, however I do place them higher on 2 matched anvil cases I have and raises them about 21" higher (wrap them with black duvetyne to hide the cases) and strap everything down to the subs.

Regarding this QSC K12.2 rig, I wanted to see it's potential and see the difference of my EAW KF300 boxes were going to be. I didn't raise them because of time constraints but they were heard pretty well until the delays took over.

The subs I'm using, believe it or not are still the Gen 1 and Gen 2 Carvin dual 18" boxes. The reason you see one that has a larger box on the bottom is the Gen 1 and I still to this day cannot find another box like it! lol, it's crazy I know, but they do sound really good.
Logged
Being a productive member of society and encouraging others to do the same.

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5615
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2019, 01:36:52 am »

With 3 per side you can do a dash-array with some custom hardware.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/QSC-K12-2-CUSTOMIZED-AS-LINE-ARRAY-12-000-W-SYSTEM/173909101772?hash=item287dca4ccc:g:EAEAAOSwX3ZcVo4M

Whatever you end up doing, you should get the mains up higher in the air. They look a bit low even when stacked on the subs.
It looks like you have a matched pair of subs on one side and a mixed pair on the other side.

Wow this is complete mess.  The speakers are not designed to array,  you are putting the wide side of the horn the wrong way and custom hardware??????

This can't possibly work.

Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Chris Grimshaw

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1269
  • Sheffield, UK
    • Grimshaw Audio
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2019, 03:23:26 am »

Wow this is complete mess.  The speakers are not designed to array,  you are putting the wide side of the horn the wrong way and custom hardware??????

This can't possibly work.

It'll "work" in the sense that you have 3x boxes and they're all making noise.


I stand by my suggestion of a 2x15"+2". Bonus if you can find something with a 90x60 HF horn that can be rotated, because then you could use 2x/side and have 120-degree coverage.

It doesn't matter how many knives you bring to a gunfight.

Chris
Logged
Sheffield-based sound engineering.
www.grimshawaudio.com

Peter Kowalczyk

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 194
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2019, 12:19:44 pm »


It doesn't matter how many knives you bring to a gunfight.


LOL!   ;D ;D ;D
Logged

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5615
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2019, 01:52:26 pm »

It'll "work" in the sense that you have 3x boxes and they're all making noise.


I stand by my suggestion of a 2x15"+2". Bonus if you can find something with a 90x60 HF horn that can be rotated, because then you could use 2x/side and have 120-degree coverage.

It doesn't matter how many knives you bring to a gunfight.

Chris

I agree completely, I was commenting on the person that made a line array out of KW boxes.

There are so many good speakers that meet the requirement of a larger horn exit, lower crossover and narrower pattern.  Those would splay decently and he would have a fighting change.



Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Sam Costa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 287
  • 408-849-6420
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2019, 01:55:53 pm »

I agree completely, I was commenting on the person that made a line array out of KW boxes.

There are so many good speakers that meet the requirement of a larger horn exit, lower crossover and narrower pattern.  Those would splay decently and he would have a fighting change.

As mentioned, I typically use my KF300 boxes for this event (and similar outdoor events where I don't need the KF650's) but I sure did like the portability and weight factor of these QSC k12.2's though.. They certainly provided a pretty good punch for the event.


Logged
Being a productive member of society and encouraging others to do the same.

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20522
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2019, 02:43:00 pm »

Sam, set up a pair of K12 outside, you don't need subs.  Set them side by side, touch at the back.  Play some pink noise and start spreading the fronts of the speakers and listen to the change.  Walk the width of the coverage, too, with each change in splay.

The best you can do it try to find a splay that minimizes the damage in whatever part of the spectrum is most important to your program material.  Rob Spence has a decade-old post about doing this exercise...
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Chrysander 'C.R.' Young

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
  • North Central FL
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2019, 02:52:59 pm »

With 3 per side you can do a dash-array with some custom hardware.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/QSC-K12-2-CUSTOMIZED-AS-LINE-ARRAY-12-000-W-SYSTEM/173909101772?hash=item287dca4ccc:g:EAEAAOSwX3ZcVo4M

Whatever you end up doing, you should get the mains up higher in the air. They look a bit low even when stacked on the subs.
It looks like you have a matched pair of subs on one side and a mixed pair on the other side.

This "system" has been making the rounds in the FB Pro Sound Disasters group for some time now.  I cannot imagine how terrible that would sound, especially with 3 x 75 degree conical HF horns all interacting poorly.  Please tell me you were making a funny and we all missed it.
Logged

Don T. Williams

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 735
  • Midas Pro 1 & 2, M32, dbTech T12, T8, S30, DM12
    • Q Systems Music & Sound
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2019, 04:44:42 pm »

I really like K12' because they hold up in my rental business.  Easy for customers to use, and hard to abuse.  I'm in full agreement that K12's don't splay well and don't make a dash array.  They probably work better than the five per side SA floor monitors flown as a dash array at a venue in my area.  I'll send pictures when I can.
Logged

Sam Costa

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 287
  • 408-849-6420
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2019, 05:38:23 pm »

Sam, set up a pair of K12 outside, you don't need subs.  Set them side by side, touch at the back.  Play some pink noise and start spreading the fronts of the speakers and listen to the change.  Walk the width of the coverage, too, with each change in splay.

The best you can do it try to find a splay that minimizes the damage in whatever part of the spectrum is most important to your program material.  Rob Spence has a decade-old post about doing this exercise...

Thanks Tim, I appreciate the input. I'll try that. :)
Logged
Being a productive member of society and encouraging others to do the same.

Scott Holtzman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5615
  • Ghost AV - Avon Lake, OH
    • Ghost Audio Visual Systems, LLC
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2019, 01:49:21 am »

I really like K12' because they hold up in my rental business.  Easy for customers to use, and hard to abuse.  I'm in full agreement that K12's don't splay well and don't make a dash array.  They probably work better than the five per side SA floor monitors flown as a dash array at a venue in my area.  I'll send pictures when I can.

Same deal with us, we have KW's and they sound better than the K's in my opinion.  I don't think the .2 are much of an upgrade, way too busy on the back panel.

However as they age I am running them more for monitor duty, corporate etc.  The Yamaha DSR's and DZR's are so vastly superior and easier to mix on the KW112 rarely go out as mains anymore.  The KW153's still get a lot of use and are a solid three way box however the JBL SRX735's with the larger HF driver are again so vastly superior they show the age of the QSC design (we don't own any of JBL's). 

Logged
Scott AKA "Skyking" Holtzman
River Delta Audio is now:

Ghost Audio Visual Solutions, LLC
Cleveland OH
www.ghostav.rocks

Dave Garoutte

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
  • San Rafael, CA
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2019, 12:07:42 pm »

The local beer garden summer series just upgraded from the K12 to K12.2.  I think it was definitely a sonic improvement.  It actually sounds more like my DSRs, more open upper mids, a bit more transparent.  I'll keep the Yammies.
Logged
Nothing can be made idiot-proof; only idiot resistant.

Events.  Stage, PA, Lighting and Backline rentals.
Chauvet dealer.  Home of the Angler.
Inventor.

Robert Lunceford

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 425
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2019, 04:16:56 pm »

This "system" has been making the rounds in the FB Pro Sound Disasters group for some time now.  I cannot imagine how terrible that would sound, especially with 3 x 75 degree conical HF horns all interacting poorly.  Please tell me you were making a funny and we all missed it.

Not my system, something I saw on ebay. I do not personally endorse this type of configuration. One of the most ridiculous deployments I have seen. Amazing that anyone would go to the trouble to fabricate hardware for such a deployment.
Logged

Dave Garoutte

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1870
  • San Rafael, CA
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2019, 06:51:39 pm »

Hey, they're in a line aren't they?  Everyone knows a line array is better.
Logged
Nothing can be made idiot-proof; only idiot resistant.

Events.  Stage, PA, Lighting and Backline rentals.
Chauvet dealer.  Home of the Angler.
Inventor.

Don T. Williams

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 735
  • Midas Pro 1 & 2, M32, dbTech T12, T8, S30, DM12
    • Q Systems Music & Sound
Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2019, 07:40:36 pm »

I just looked at the ebay listing.  The rigging bars look pretty nice, but I wonder what the safe working load limit is?  Again, it isn't a line array and they don't array well in any configuration.  I'm certain it doesn't have an engineer's stamp.   And then I looked at the roof!!!!  Are those lifts rated for 180 lbs?  Or less!  Three K12's with rigging must weigh 150 lbs. by themselves, so with six on the front truss and you have 300 lbs. of speakers alone.  Holy Sh__!
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Proper splay on QSC K12.2?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2019, 07:40:36 pm »


Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.07 seconds with 22 queries.