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Author Topic: More VRX help needed  (Read 1998 times)

Luke Geis

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Re: More VRX help needed
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2019, 11:42:18 pm »

I concur with Chris; the speakers will give you evident signs that they are in distress before they let out the magic smoke. There are things that can happen that can take out speakers immediately, but you have to mess up pretty bad. If it sounds like it is hurting, it probably is.

The amp attenuator knobs are decidedly useless unless you have a need to reduce the noise floor ( which isn't needed; as systems are getting ever quieter and cleaner in sound ) due to the self-noise of the amplifier circuit. The standard practice these days is to simply turn the input attenuator knob all the way up. The amps input will clip at the same relative input voltage regardless, so turning it down just means you're adding noise from an upstream device as you turn it up to get the desired volume.

With modern digital amps, you can generally set the output volume and limiter values to suit most basic needs. The XTI series I believe allows for a -12db limiter setting threshold, which should start protecting the speakers rather early. Even a -6db setting will give modest protection for an occasional oopsie.
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Eddie Ybarra

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Re: More VRX help needed
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2019, 12:09:44 am »

Inputs aren't clipping except maybe a snare drum hit after a drum fill little things like that. So check this out, before flattening out the eq on the board and drive rack the board was clipping a lot more, after i gained headroom and a better overall mix. During the show the board hovers around -6 with peaks at -3.

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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: More VRX help needed
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2019, 12:30:33 am »

During the show the board hovers around -6 with peaks at -3.
OK but.. would you push an analog board to +16 to +19 dB on the mains and consider that good? That is the equivalent signal level and it suggests either your gain stages are still way off or you are pushing the system really hard.
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Eddie Ybarra

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Re: More VRX help needed
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2019, 01:23:15 am »

I see your point I'm still working on getting the gain staging right, then again not having enough rig doesn't help either.
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: More VRX help needed
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2019, 01:32:37 am »

OK but.. would you push an analog board to +16 to +19 dB on the mains and consider that good? That is the equivalent signal level and it suggests either your gain stages are still way off or you are pushing the system really hard.

Sounds like you've outgrown the "dash array" format and need to look at buying or renting something else.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: More VRX help needed
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2019, 04:10:20 am »

Inputs aren't clipping except maybe a snare drum hit after a drum fill little things like that. So check this out, before flattening out the eq on the board and drive rack the board was clipping a lot more, after i gained headroom and a better overall mix. During the show the board hovers around -6 with peaks at -3.

That's way, way too hot.  Is there another device in the signal chain?  Perhaps hidden somewhere?
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Chris Grimshaw

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Re: More VRX help needed
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2019, 11:36:17 am »

I see your point I'm still working on getting the gain staging right, then again not having enough rig doesn't help either.

I'm not certain you know for sure whether you have enough rig for the gig. If the amp attenuators were one click up from -infinity, then putting +22dBU in there still won't get them to reach full output.

Pull the desk master down, turn the amp gains up, and then you'll be able to find the limits of the amps/speakers, instead of a line-level device that shouldn't be clipping.

Chris
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: More VRX help needed
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2019, 03:38:22 pm »

I'm not certain you know for sure whether you have enough rig for the gig. If the amp attenuators were one click up from -infinity, then putting +22dBU in there still won't get them to reach full output.

Pull the desk master down, turn the amp gains up, and then you'll be able to find the limits of the amps/speakers, instead of a line-level device that shouldn't be clipping.

Chris

Chris, I think Eddie is kind of stuck.  If I'm correctly understanding all of this he's a tech at a venue with an A1 or tech director above him on the organizational chart.  He's previously expressed some skepticism with regard to the deployment and processing of the house system.  Eddie is trying to make the best use of the tools available to him.

After reading about console output levels, the mid-band -6dB carve-out (which may or may not be similar to the traces Riley posted, and the possible rolled back XTi input levels... I can't decide if these are the product of tech-creep (the eventual modification of settings, routing, etc that happens in club installs), or was purposely instituted to voice the rig AND gain stage the system for simultaneous clipping, i.e. red lights on the console mean red lights on the amplifiers.

What we don't know is Eddie's expectation of his mixes; we don't know how he voices individual inputs or what his idea of musical balance is.  Those are important and as a system engineer I observe that those things can illustrate how much more rig some mixerpersons need in order to achieve a certain density of mix.  When "typical" operation of the system requires Full Tilt Boogie levels from the desk and the power amps are into occasional clip, there isn't much left.  This is also the point where power compression becomes a factor.

So while I'm making guesses my next one is that this venue's VRX rig was not intended to be pushed as hard as it is (or whoever specified it had no real world experience with it).  I think they need loudspeakers that better cover the room and that deliver more SPL for voltage in.

I wish Eddie the best with this.  It's frustrating to mix on a rig that responds (or doesn't) like this.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Eddie Ybarra

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Re: More VRX help needed
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2019, 06:09:53 pm »

Tim you're correct I am a tech at a theme/amusement park with three venues two of which have VRX rigs and the other a Meyer UPA-2B rig. The only thing between the mixer and amps is the driverack260. When the audio supervisor was mixing the show during rehearsals the board was clipping regularly so i went to check out the amps and drive rack and what i saw had me scratching my head a little bit. Inputs on the DR were in the green and every so often with a bass drum hit, outputs were at 0 and +5. The meters on the amps were at -10 and -20 so nothing too out of the ordinary in my opinion but what I'm hearing and what I'm seeing doesn't make sense, to me anyways. Regarding my mix vocals are on top and up front as much as possible and that's coming from the big boss no biggie right but when the rest of the band needs to be at the same volume then we have a problem then the big boss say he wants it louder than that then we have a real big problem. Good thing is after some explaining and some reasoning we're able to talk him down to something that works but still at the end of the day this VRX rig is just a struggle to mix on.
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Paul G. OBrien

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Re: More VRX help needed
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2019, 07:29:59 pm »

Inputs on the DR were in the green and every so often with a bass drum hit, outputs were at 0 and +5. The meters on the amps were at -10 and -20
That isn't right, the amps should be right at clipping with that input signal.
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Re: More VRX help needed
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2019, 07:29:59 pm »


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