ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: New member intro and small venue questions  (Read 1190 times)

Ed Hitchcock

  • Lab Lounge
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
New member intro and small venue questions
« on: May 30, 2019, 03:22:22 PM »

I have been lurking for a while, this is my first post. Since I am a newbie to this forum, I hope this is the right place.
As a quick intro, I am a high school science teacher with a background in paleontology and astronomy, but I have also worked in theatre professionally, off and on, for over three decades. I am more of a sets and lighting guy than sound, but I have run my fair share of audio on a variety of shows, but theatre is a different beast than live bands in a small venue.
Recently I was asked to help out a friends band with a gig, and then found myself being adopted as a full member of the band. It’s a 6 member band (drums, keys, bass, lead & rhythm guitar and lead vocalist) that does festivals, bars, and corporate events. And yes, it is a side hustle for everyone.
The problem I am running into is, from my perusal of the interwebs, a perennial one: onstage volume is too loud, so no one can hear themselves, so everyone wants more monitor, so it gets louder… This is not so much an issue at festivals, but bars and trade shows, where people need to talk to each other, the FOH level has to allow for ordering drinks at least. At a recent trade show, the FOH level at a moderate distance from the stage was 98 dB, but onstage was 105 dB! With that kind of stage racket, FOH is a nightmare, because I am trying to pull a moderate level clean sound out on top of the mud.
Reading through what I can find, there are some straightforward things we can do to reduce the din somewhat – moving the drums to the side so they’re not right behind the lead vocalist, using mute rings, lighter sticks (and maybe, just maybe, playing softer…), maybe using e-drums for smaller venues (if he’s willing, that would help the level tremendously!), tilting the guitar amps back, moving them to side-stage facing onstage so they can each hear each other. Some of us are pushing for wider adoption of IEM’s, but some of the band members are resistant.
What I am thinking of trying next, and this is where you are welcome to chime in to tell me it’s a stupid idea, is to use a pair of tripod mounted speakers as backline monitors. Run the instruments through them at head height, so a) all musicians can hear clearly, and b) excess sound spills out front clean, rather than muddy. The guitar amps will be either miked (miced? mic’ed?) or direct line out to the board so they can sit on the floor for all that low end floor oomph for the musician, but they still get the full tone straight to the back of the head from the backline, so no complaints about not hearing anything. Keep front wedges strictly for vocals. I can then use the FOH primarily for vocals, but fill in instruments as needed to balance it out. Combined with the strategies above, as long as the vocalist is not straining to hear herself in the monitors, it should both reduce (slightly) and clean up (substantially) the onstage racket spilling out to the house.
I would welcome and thoughts, ideas, suggestions, criticisms, suggestions, recommendations, ridicule, and/or pointers the more experienced live sound people may have to offer.
I should mention we are using a QSC Touchmix 16, so I have 20 inputs and 6 mono + 2 stereo aux outs to play with, so lots of flexibility.

Cheers,
Ed
Logged

Gordon Brinton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 553
  • ID Verified
    • Raw Depth Sound and Raw Depth Video, Carlisle, PA
Re: New member intro and small venue questions
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2019, 08:36:08 PM »

Perhaps a meeting/rehearsal and analytic approach to what is causing the volume wars would be a good start.

Drums? Drums and cymbals come in different designs, some of which are intended to be louder than others. For example, I have Hi-hats that sound very loud and piercing and some others that are smaller and have a softer voice. Crash cymbals are the same way. Certain wooden shells and drum heads are designed to have more power and ring out more loudly than others. Lighter sticks offer less attack/initial crack too. Wooden snare drums don't crack as loudly as metal ones. There is a lot a drummer can do to lessen the payload so-to-speak. It begins with making proper choices at purchase time. Choose your drums for the venues that you will play, not just for bragging rights. Furthermore, if you are mic'ing the drums, he doesn't need to play hard to be heard.

I have switched from acoustic drums to electronic and our stage volume has dropped probably some 20dB. They are not all that different as far as comfort. A good drummer can play on anything.

Each of the other instruments have volume knobs. Use them.

IEM's? What an amazing world of difference they make. They should be thought of as ear plugs, but with the ability to fill-in only what the user wants to hear. One caveat, they must be pushed in and sealed tightly or else they will sound like crap no matter how good they are.

If your band is too immature to turn down then all the chin rubbing and discussion in the world isn't going to help them. Experienced musicians learn this in time. Everything that you've listed will help somewhat, but if they continue to work against you, I would resign from them and go find a better band. Seriously. Louder on stage than FOH is crazy. It should be the other way round.

Hope this helps. Good luck.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 08:44:52 PM by Gordon Brinton »
Logged
Member since 2005.

Tim Hite

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1221
    • Bad Quail
Re: New member intro and small venue questions
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2019, 08:50:28 PM »

Ed, it seems like you have plenty of tools to help reduce stage volume. Implementing them requires people skills and willing participants. You'll likely need a sit down to get the players on board with what you're trying to do. I would think that putting it in the context of helping create a better performance would be enough to sell the concept of reducing stage volume.

One tool thing you didn't mention is making sure that the players are close to their wedges and centered up on them for maximum effect. Possibly spike the floor where you need them to stand to get the most out of the wedges.
Logged
Bad Quail
Sound + Light + Image
Joshua Tree, California
Authorized Dealer for all this stuff

Ed Hitchcock

  • Lab Lounge
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
Re: New member intro and small venue questions
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2019, 09:56:51 PM »

Thank you gents, encouraging words that I am on the right track. Yes, people skills are important when trying to get musicians to change their ways for the benefit of the overall sound.
Logged

Mike Caldwell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3091
  • Covington, Ohio
    • Mike Caldwell Audio Productions
Re: New member intro and small venue questions
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2019, 11:04:23 PM »

Mention to them if they truly want to break into the really good paying corporate events they will need to get the stage volume turned way down. As they are they may get one of those gigs but never booked again.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 06:55:12 AM by Mike Caldwell »
Logged

Mark Scrivener

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 417
    • My Recording Studio
Re: New member intro and small venue questions
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2019, 11:40:57 PM »

I'd start with trying to get the rehearsals as quiet as possible. Here's a trick - no PA at rehearsal. If vocals and acoustic instruments can't be heard, then everyone else needs to reduce their volume. If the drummer can't play quiet, have them try some of these - http://www.lidwishsoulutions.com/  way better and less expensive than e drums. A skilled drummer can play fast and intense while staying quiet (just look at some of the great jazz drummers). Once you get the drums under control, it should be easy to get rehearsals so that no PA is needed for vocals or acoustic instruments.

IEM's are a great solution as well, but it is an investment and there is a learning curve. Regardless which way you go (IEM's or wedges), learning to rehearse quietly will be beneficial.

Bob Faulkner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1497
  • Raleigh, NC
Re: New member intro and small venue questions
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2019, 11:06:11 AM »

As eluded to in the previous posts, you do not have a problem with the equipment... it's the people.  What you described for how the stage volume is seems to point to the band members are not actually in a "band", but individuals performing around each other.  The "band" needs to be fixed so it functions as one-entity... especially, if they want to present a professional image (sound and visually).

I've seen this behavior many, many times with inexperienced performers (usually the younger crowd).

Logged

Debbie Dunkley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6046
  • Central North Carolina
Re: New member intro and small venue questions
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2019, 12:00:06 PM »

The problem instruments are always guitar and drums.
The guitarists usual reasoning for being loud on stage is that the amp has to be turned up for tone -  especially true for valves but the cab doesn't have to be facing the audience and blasting the ears of the folks at front. The cab can be angled up so that the players knees are not being accommodated but their ears instead OR it can be turned fully around 180 and miked.
With drums as stated earlier there are lots of ways to help with volume - choice of cymbals and sticks and just playing lighter. Everything else in the band can be turned down .....

Volume wars are the worst thing to deal with in a band and will cause the singers especially to become very frustrated and it will have an adverse affect on their voice too.
Logged
A young child says to his mother, "Mom, when I grow up I'm going to be a musician." She replies, "Well honey, you know you can't do both."

Kevin_Tisdall

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 183
  • Milford, CT
Re: New member intro and small venue questions
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2019, 12:05:51 PM »

Since bands pay me to mix I just tell them that they are wasting their money on the pa and I won't have their instruments in the mix if they are too loud for me to get a comfortable level overall.  Their choice.

Most are able to puzzle that out and turn down.  Some are not.  I try not to work for those.

A plexi screen around drums is pretty effective and fairly common these days.  Aiming amps at the band members helps.

As mentioned, the bands that 'get it' get the good gigs and sound great.  The others don't.

--Kevin
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: New member intro and small venue questions
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2019, 12:05:51 PM »


Pages: [1]   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.036 seconds with 25 queries.