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Author Topic: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?  (Read 1647 times)

Tim McCulloch

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Re: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2019, 07:59:45 pm »

Like others here I'd be worried about how it would effect the porting and air velocity coming out of the ports to effect the box tuning. Yes it would take quite a bit to plug a port all together but it may shift the tuning frequency up/down to effect the dampening factor of the ports tuning frequency. It may effect the cone control at Fb which could possible effect power handling somewhat. Also , depending on how much the banner effects the cone, it could cause back pressure against the cone and effect its power handling somewhat as well.  I'd hate to see you tear a cone up just for a banner. I wouldn't do it.

Douglas R. Allen

This ^^^

How about we drape the banner over the front of the guitar and bass rigs MS/MR/YOUTHERE Bandleader?  It won't affect the sound or potentially impair the equipment! /sarc

No?  Then you cant hang it over the subs, either.
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Geert Friedhof

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Re: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2019, 08:55:53 pm »

This ^^^

How about we drape the banner over the front of the guitar and bass rigs MS/MR/YOUTHERE Bandleader?  It won't affect the sound or potentially impair the equipment! /sarc

No?  Then you cant hang it over the subs, either.

Bovinesecretions!

Except for very inert,heavy and long/high enough barriers it wont make any difference, as long as the frequency is low enough, as subs usually do.



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Marc Sibilia

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Re: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2019, 08:57:03 pm »

I have never noticed an issue with linen, or even vinyl tablecloth. Dont think I've done it with an actual banner, but I can't imagine it's much different. I think the wavelengths are just too long and the potential barrier too flimsy to make a difference.

If the banner weighs less than about 1/4 wavelength (~ 1 meter at 80 Hz) of air weighs or about 2 lbs / sq yd., it won't reflect very much, and sound will pass through relatively unimpeded if it is not held taut.  But if it is in front of the sub, it may rattle and sound terrible.  I would face the subs away from the crowd and put the banners on the back if I were using passive subs.  I am not sure I would do that with active subs where that might block airflow to the amp's heatsinks.  At 80 Hz, the directivity is pretty symmetric front to back, so facing them back doesn't make much difference.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2019, 10:49:58 pm »

If the banner weighs less than about 1/4 wavelength (~ 1 meter at 80 Hz) of air weighs or about 2 lbs / sq yd., it won't reflect very much, and sound will pass through relatively unimpeded if it is not held taut.  But if it is in front of the sub, it may rattle and sound terrible.  I would face the subs away from the crowd and put the banners on the back if I were using passive subs.  I am not sure I would do that with active subs where that might block airflow to the amp's heatsinks.  At 80 Hz, the directivity is pretty symmetric front to back, so facing them back doesn't make much difference.

Let me be the first in line to say that I will not re-arrange my subs to make for a convenient place to put the bands banner.

Robert Lunceford

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Re: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2019, 11:29:42 pm »

Will you be running the SQ mixer for this engagement?
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2019, 12:33:43 am »

Bovinesecretions!

Except for very inert,heavy and long/high enough barriers it wont make any difference, as long as the frequency is low enough, as subs usually do.

I think my point went over your head so fast, we could see your hair move.. ;)

The band can put their banner directly in front of my subs when I can put my banner directly over the guitar and bass rigs.  Tell me what you think the band would say about such an offer?  I'm thinking somewhere between "uh, say what?" to "you're crazy, you can't put that over our rigs!"

Why should my response be different?
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Debbie Dunkley

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Re: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2019, 11:06:16 am »

Will you be running the SQ mixer for this engagement?

Not this one. Right now I have it set up in my recording studio and I don't want to move it.
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Mal Brown

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Re: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2019, 11:47:41 am »

The promoters I work with/for would nix band banners before it became an issue.  The banners I shoot through regularly, without issue are sponsor banners...   I always have a couple of feet clearance between the subs and the banners.   Done it with horn loaded (la-400ís) and direct radiating PAS traps or kw-181ís.

If there is a difference in sound quality it is pretty subtle.  Then again, these arenít controlled experiments where I can do a side by side... 
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2019, 12:11:18 pm »

The promoters I work with/for would nix band banners before it became an issue.  The banners I shoot through regularly, without issue are sponsor banners...   I always have a couple of feet clearance between the subs and the banners.   Done it with horn loaded (la-400ís) and direct radiating PAS traps or kw-181ís.

If there is a difference in sound quality it is pretty subtle.  Then again, these arenít controlled experiments where I can do a side by side...

"Shooting through" requires the right material (and digital printing) and it still reflects a lot of energy back to the stage and behind the speakers.  I really, really dislike promotional/sponsor/advertising scrims in front of speakers but I accept that those things help the promoter pay for production, so I don't make an issue of it unless the material is inappropriate (unperforated) and then we find another place for the signage.

Part of what I was alluding to up-thread is about respect.  The band wants to cover "my stuff" with their banner, so how about we turn that around?  There's no way in hell a band would let me cover their stuff, so why do they think they can cover mine?  The promoter, OTOH, signs the cheque and it's understood in advance that sponsor scrims might be placed.  It's the promoter's party and if the promoter is all good for the compromised audio (and they are, trust me), the scrim goes up.

Looking for a sonic degradation claim is really a nice, passive-agressive way of NOT saying NO.  Just say no.
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Frank Koenig

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Re: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2019, 01:49:47 pm »

If the banner weighs less than about 1/4 wavelength (~ 1 meter at 80 Hz) of air weighs or about 2 lbs / sq yd., it won't reflect very much, and sound will pass through relatively unimpeded if it is not held taut.

Marc, thanks for the physics and the heuristic you gave us. Gave me something to think about. It seems like it should be possible to make an analogy to an electrical transmission line (with a lump in it) if we assume an acoustic plane wave, as you have. --Frank
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Re: Covering subs with banners- much degradation to sound?
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