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[jesseweiss]

Jesse,

You're only using 2 monitors for the entire band?

If both monitors contain the same mix, or even if they don't for that matter; the solution to your problem is most likely just adding more monitors, each having it's own mix tailored to just the person who is near it rather than adding more shared mixes and splitting up your vocals and instruments.

Each band member needs their own personal monitor with ONLY what they need in it. This should result in less stage volume, unless every monitor is fighting guitar amps that are too loud.

2 monitors for the 3 guitarists up front, minus me as the drummer. I have my own monitor or I use wired in-ears. We are usually on small stages, and cost is always an issue. And yes I'm always fighting amps because the band still wants the backline at the back and then can't hear themselves.

We've discussed amps set up to side fill, or even front of stage facing them, but change is hard .

Maybe it makes sense to just get one more dbr10, so everyone has their own monitor. I can afford that.

I am working towards upgrading speakers, so could potentially upgrade the monitors down the line which could help.

Thanks.

[David Morison]

2 monitors for the 3 guitarists up front, minus me as the drummer. I have my own monitor or I use wired in-ears. We are usually on small stages, and cost is always an issue. And yes I'm always fighting amps because the band still wants the backline at the back and then can't hear themselves.

One wedge per singer with only their vocal in it, untill they learn/agree to turn down/reposition the amps so that guitars in the wedges isn't needed anyway.
Might take being a bit firmer with them than you want, so a case of picking your battles, but that's what I'd want to start with.

[David Morison]

Thanks you for your answers.

Yes, that sounds like sticking with one wedge will be easier and far more simple. I was going for 'clarity' portion of that setup, but I guess it wouldn't be any more practical if after all I'd have to have 3 fairly equally sized wedges anyway for an improvement that might not even be there.

Just to consolidate what others are saying, for anyone at lounge level (ie smaller stages, less experienced operators, lower budget than any Dave Rat gig), a single source is flat out going to wipe the floor with multiple sources for clarity. Even in Dave Rat's world, the potential extra clarity gained would be only relevant at very high volumes.

Also, lets think about equipment quality for a moment.
Dave Rat can play with multiples of the highest quality wedges if need be, but in the Lounge world, we can't.

I'd sure as hell prefer to listen to one £1300 wedge than three £433 wedges any day.

[Luke Geis]

Now that I have a little more info I can affirm what others are saying. If you don't already, 1 monitor to each musician on their very own mix. Each musician should get their own custom mix tailored to their needs. To reiterate the end goal, ideally, there should only be vocals and perhaps a touch of the other instruments that they can't hear; although I would stress that if they can't hear the other instruments over themselves or someone else, they're too loud already.

I am evil when it comes to monitors for two reasons.

1. Musicians create most all of their own problems and monitoring is where it typically starts. The more me syndrome sort of thing. You only need to hear yourself, beyond that its just wasting energy.

2. Loud stages and monitors mess up the potential for good sound faster than anything you can imagine. It doesn't sound good to hear the out of phase and polarity wedges that only reproduce 250hz - 1khz towards the crowd and it is walking all over your main FOH mix.

I have a couple of sayings when it comes to monitors: " if you can hear yourself at all, you're already too loud " and " I don't understand how you can't hear yourself? " the second saying is really tongue in cheek and is just playing coy to the obvious. I have been playing guitar for 27 years and have been in bands pretty much that whole time as well. I am quite aware of how much volume is needed to hear myself and it isn't so much that vocals and the other instruments need to be amplified out of my monitor. Playing in a band is a team sport and as such, it should be a common goal to make it so that everyone gets what they need. Need is the keyword. The ego has to sit on the table. The thing I always try to remind musicians is that they show isn't about or for them, it is for the patrons who come to watch you, the fans and the ones you want to attract. When you start looking at it as a privilege and a joy to be able to perform, and start focussing your energy on your fans, your stage manners improve and your performance improves.

Monitoring is important and is most certainly welcomed by sound engineers, we tend to start regretting it when the monitors start taking over the show and it turns into an all about me sort of thing. Start by making it so everyone has an equal opportunity ( 1 monitor for each musician ) and see where that gets you first before you start going crazy with expensive and time-consuming tricks.

[Eric Snodgrass]

1. Musicians create most all of their own problems and monitoring is where it typically starts. The more me syndrome sort of thing. You only need to hear yourself, beyond that its just wasting energy.

2. Loud stages and monitors mess up the potential for good sound faster than anything you can imagine. It doesn't sound good to hear the out of phase and polarity wedges that only reproduce 250hz - 1khz towards the crowd and it is walking all over your main FOH mix.

Back in the early 00s I was working at a venue that was hosting a television show taping.  An A-list veteran singer/songwriter was on stage with his band during sound check.  The band had been rehearsing off-site for a couple of days and the monitor mixes were already dialed in from rehearsals, but when sound check started each musician kept asking for more volume in their respective monitors.  It became increasingly louder and halfway through the first song the singer/songwriter stopped the band.  He then told the monitor engineer to bring down all the faders on all the wedges and start from scratch.  Then the singer/songwriter went to each musician, asked them exactly what they needed in their wedge, then stood there and listened as the ME brought up the volume of each wedge.  Singer/Songwriter then told the ME to stop when he deemed it loud enough and then told each musician, "That's what you get. No more." 
The stage was a lot quieter and made for a much better FOH and Broadcast mix. 

[Scott Olewiler]

We've discussed amps set up to side fill, or even front of stage facing them, but change is hard .

I play in a 4 piece Blues/Rock band in addition to doing sound.

I use a small (20 watt) amp on the floor in front of me angled back towards the band ( I stand center stage). This allows me to keep my amp volume fairly low, and no one needs the guitar in their wedge, not even our drummer.  Very little stage bleed, so almost everything the audience hears is coming thru the PA.  Also means we need a lot less vocal volume on stage since we're not competing with a loud amp. 

Loudest thing on our stage is probably the ride.  I would so love it if other bands would adopt this philosophy and stop bringing half stacks to shows that only need a 25 watt amp. So many idiot guitar players out there who still think they need a loud tube amp to get good tone. But that's another discussion that's been beat to death on the forum.

[Tim McCulloch]

So many idiot guitar players out there who still think they need a loud tube amp to get good tone. But that's another discussion that's been beat to death on the forum.

I love the instrument but after nearly 40 years in audio, I've learned to despise more guitarists than seems reasonable.  Why?  Many of them are neurotic at best and bat-shit wacky is common.  The discussion can continue, Scott, so long as I'm granted permission to physically beat the offending guitar-bangers and stuff their body parts in the Marshall full stack.  Note the lack of "smiling things".... 

Next in line for that can of Whoop Ass, bassists with distortion pedals that produce a tone that sounds amazingly like blown (or dying) speakers that seems to be stuck in the "on" position... ditto for EDM tracks that have similar sonic content.

And while I have the Rant Pulpit- support act mixerpersons who seem bent on hitting every protective limit in 4 of 4 pass bands, leaving no room for "more" for the headline act.  It's a long 90 minutes of me watching every amp in the rig just under clip, with the V5 limiters doing their jobs.

We now return you to our regular programming...

[Helge A Bentsen]

And while I have the Rant Pulpit- support act mixerpersons who seem bent on hitting every protective limit in 4 of 4 pass bands, leaving no room for "more" for the headline act.  It's a long 90 minutes of me watching every amp in the rig just under clip, with the V5 limiters doing their jobs.

Could it be that they are looking for some master bus compression?
I noticed that my levels dropped when I started to apply compression to the master bus. It seems to "glue" the mix together at lower levels.

[lindsay Dean]

The main problem I found with guitar players is they say they have to have it loud to get their "sound" their "tone" which is total ......
 I've always said if you quit shooting the amp between your legs and point it at you you might actually know what it sounds like.
without blasting the people in the front rows faces off.
 but hard head is hard head.
     This is also the reason when you get them in a studio and they hear their mic'd amp through studio monitors they'll say
"Does my rig sound like that?"yeah your rig sounds like a chainsaw with glass particles in a bucket.
But usually by that time they're pretty much more than 50% deaf.
     Here's what you can do,  buy a road case that's big enough for their amp drop a mic in there and close the cover. Problem solved
some guys in the Doobie Brothers and other bands do it to get their "sound? without blowing people's heads off.
anyway I feel better now, thanks

[dave briar]

The main problem I found with guitar players is they say they have to have it loud to get their "sound" their "tone" which is total ......
 I've always said if you quit shooting the amp between your legs and point it at you you might actually know what it sounds like.
without blasting the people in the front rows faces off.
 but hard head is hard head.

I built a couple of amp shields/baffles (2’x2’x2” Acoustimac panels screwed to 1/2” MDF) and have become quite militant about using them.  I mean I try hard to be pleasant but undeterred — even with hard heads.  We have really nice coaxial monitors and I stand there with my tablet and usually give them a blast in their face until they say whoa, not that much!  Ha!  Now you know what the front row usually feels like!

[ProSoundWeb Community]