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[Paul G. OBrien]

Here are a couple more pics of the space.

This is from the back of the stage during a performance of the Cleverlys earlier this month. Whatever audio production was provided for that show is not being provided for ours (but AFAIK, the lights are permanent).

See that pic makes it look like the band is right under the bridge/overpass/roadway whereas the previous pics make that structure appear to be far off in the background. That changes things, setup the band in the typical space at top of the stairs but still try to use the different speakers systems to cover different crowd zones because they won't interact nicely at all.

[Scott Holtzman]

Pretty harsh, Mal, and also pretty off base, IMO.

I am a sideman in this band, doing my best to help make it sound as good as it can in any given circumstance. I have no say over bookings or budgets. I don't control how much the client decides to pay the band for a given engagement or whether they provide production when it's obviously desperately needed.

This particular gig is one the band does yearly in their hometown to be able to play publicly for local friends and fans. We mostly do regional private corporate/wedding work. I'm sure the band is taking a big pay hit just to do the gig. Since us sidemen get our standard rate for the gig, I'm guessing that the show may even be a loss for the business. In any case the bandleaders see a net benefit to doing the gig, despite the financial and logistical limitations.

This gig is not part of some nefarious plan to take work from a local sound company. Hell, in he past I've been that struggling local sound guy..I can assure you that I would not fault a band for doing this gig with their own gear.

I don't know all the specifics, but to bring on sound I'd guess it would double or triple the budget. But the budget for this gig is fixed by the client - a non-profit community event organization funded in part by the City.

How exactly is what we're doing taking work from a struggling local sound guy?

Are you saying the band should pass on the gig as some kind of principled stand against local non-profits not providing a big enough audio budget for their community summer concert series?

No Mal is exactly spot on.  This happens all the time, and the result is your band is not presented in the best light, the folks attending have a very fatiguing experience and overall it sucks.  I suppose you are going to mix from stage too?

It starts with the producer of the events.  They don't have the budget, don't know what questions to ask and have probably never hired production.

It then goes to an eager band that negotiates and accepts the gig.  Mal's point is very valid.  You guys could have said no.  If you are truly powerless I would do my job, play the bass, stay out of site as much as possible and watch the shit show ensue.

Then once the gig is accepted you end up earning way less than you should have and abuse your PA equipment by pushing it way outside it's design limits.

The problem is the same attitude usually extends to safety and other important issues.  Someone will pay $1000 for portable toilets without a thought but comes unglued at that same amount for someone to bring in 50k worth of production gear and labor.

It doesn't have to be this way.  We do these lawn chair gigs all summer long.  The good ones properly fund production (some even go too far hiring in Stagelines for poorly attended gigs, good salesmanship I guess) and start off with safe staging and power.  It's really a drop in the bucket compared to other expenses and done correctly the guests have such a better time.

Mal wasn't insulting you, you are trapped in a paradigm that you think you "have to do the gig".  No is a powerful word.  If enough people used it the world would be a better place.

[Tim McCulloch]

No Mal is exactly spot on.  This happens all the time, and the result is your band is not presented in the best light, the folks attending have a very fatiguing experience and overall it sucks.  I suppose you are going to mix from stage too?

It starts with the producer of the events.  They don't have the budget, don't know what questions to ask and have probably never hired production.

It then goes to an eager band that negotiates and accepts the gig.  Mal's point is very valid.  You guys could have said no.  If you are truly powerless I would do my job, play the bass, stay out of site as much as possible and watch the shit show ensue.

Then once the gig is accepted you end up earning way less than you should have and abuse your PA equipment by pushing it way outside it's design limits.

The problem is the same attitude usually extends to safety and other important issues.  Someone will pay $1000 for portable toilets without a thought but comes unglued at that same amount for someone to bring in 50k worth of production gear and labor.

It doesn't have to be this way.  We do these lawn chair gigs all summer long.  The good ones properly fund production (some even go too far hiring in Stagelines for poorly attended gigs, good salesmanship I guess) and start off with safe staging and power.  It's really a drop in the bucket compared to other expenses and done correctly the guests have such a better time.

Mal wasn't insulting you, you are trapped in a paradigm that you think you "have to do the gig".  No is a powerful word.  If enough people used it the world would be a better place.

What's with the dog pile here?

Patrick is a hired gun, a side man.  He has zero power or authority.  How the band is presented is - in theory - not his problem.  He's trying to minimize the shit show by pushing the envelope regarding his status and position with the band.

That the short-sighted and short-pursed organizers don't seem to care about audio (but they installed permanent lighting) is too bad for the event series in general but is their decision to make.  It's a local band day in the local park for the local folks.

Do we need a new forum for "you suck at managing your band"?  Who wants to be the moderator?>

[Kevin Maxwell]

That is a very interesting place to put a stage. I am sure there is a good joke about a troll under the bridge but I can’t think of one now. What is the bridge used for is it a thru road with vehicle traffic? How much noise is there due to what is happening on the bridge?

Back to the speaker system. I have done a dual system setup where we put the vocals in one speaker and the instruments in the other and I loved it, I wish I could do this more often. You can use the left send for the vocals speakers and the right send for the instrument speakers. If you have enough outputs I would even put different things in the different subs that you have. Put the kick in one type of sub and put the bass guitar in the other type. I would also see if there is a way to put your speakers down the stairs a little bit. You might be able to put some wood on the next step down from where you would put the speakers to get an even surface to put them on. 

[Mike Santarelli]

Someone will pay $1000 for portable toilets without a thought but comes unglued at that same amount for someone to bring in 50k worth of production gear and labor.

Scott,

I think I’m going to have to quote you when negotiating from now on. Great line.

[Patrick Tracy]

I think I'd opt for the JBL system alone, with subs either side of stage. Dual PA is cool but I suspect the extra time and effort to get it going won't yield all that much improvement.

The JBL tops won't cover 360° so why bother covering it with the subs?  Let there be power alley. If you can make the spread between the stacks somewhat narrow it will widen power alley a bit. Put the subs inboard and the tops outboard.

[Pat Cognitore]

Update and change of plans.

Just found out today that we are not gonna use the Bose system, but the plan is to use my JBL PRX700 rig along with the JBL Eon600 rig (615s over 618s) they used last year.

I think on the subwoofer front we'll have a fighting chance of the different model JBLs playing nice together.  And If not we can still do a dual PA setup.

Additional good news, we will have someone running sound from FOH. I feel I can now be less mentally invested in the setup and let him do his thing on the day.

Thanks again everyone for all the input. I will post back when we get through the gig in a couple of weeks.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Craig Leerman]

Hey Pat,

Thanks for trying to make the gig sound good. You deserve an Attaboy award! Tell your bandleader I said you need more money. 

Seriously it amazes me how many bands don’t care about their own sound, or how they present themselves. I appreciate the fact that you seem to be doing everything in your power to make things work out.  KUDOS!

Let us know how things worked out.

Craig

[Scott Holtzman]

I am sorry was so hard on you.  We do a lot of these style events and work hard to make them special.

Communities that invest in them see so many intangible returns, it frustrates  me when folks enable this behavior

Your desire to make the best of what you have is commendable.

I hope things turn out well.

Sent from my VS996 using Tapatalk

[John Ferreira]

I would use the JBLs as the main PA and put the subs together in the center to get some extra dB.  Then I would place the Bose system outside the main PA and point them off to the sides to cover a wider area. If folks want to hear they usually sit in front of the stage. With the Bose you will get a wider area of coverage so folks can congregate off to the sides.

I would not mix the 2 systems together because they are different.

Craig

Absolutely what Craig said above ^^

I also own PRX 712 (and SRX 812), and the only other suggestion is try to run them as flat as you can if you need volume.
The subs get approximately 3 dB from being close to the ground, so do not lift them up, and another 3dB if you put them together from coupling. You probably already know all that.

[ProSoundWeb Community]